Years ago, one could correctly assume that service was included when presented with a check. Over time, however, it appears that the influx of Americans used to paying even more may have corrupted Italians into always answering "no" when asked if service is included. In some of the restaurants we visited recently, there was a separate charge for service, so there was nothing to question. In those cases, you have the option to round up and add a euro or two if the service has been outstanding. Where there was no charge indicated, we asked if service was included. Every time we asked we were told it was not. Twice we were told that it was not but that we need not leave anything extra. So where appropriate we left another 8% to 10%, but sensed that we were being taken for a ride. My guess is that locals would never have left anything more and that asking if service is included has become a waste of time.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kim,
Posts: 275 | Location: In the woods of Southern Connecticut | Registered: 30 March 2005
If service is on the check, you pay it. If service is not on the check, it is not due.
If you want to leave something as a tip, you can do it, but you do not have any obligation to pay anything that is not on the check (usually the tip is made rounding up, something like two or three euros, unless the service was something exceptional and really getting out of the normal waiter's duties).
Here are some of the restaurants we visited: Taverna San Silvestro, Collepino La Cacciatore, Spello Enoteca Piazza Onofri, Bevagna Taverna del Pescatore, Pigge La Fortezza, Assisi Hostaria Margutta, Rome Are these all tourist restaurants? More likely, I think, was our mistake in asking whether service was included. It seems that most certainly will prompt an answer in the negative. We've made numerous trips abroad over the last 40 years and generally avoid restaurants where the menu is in English or where there are similar "tourist" indications. So it appears that the best advice is to pay the bill as rendered. Period.
Posts: 275 | Location: In the woods of Southern Connecticut | Registered: 30 March 2005
Originally posted by Alice Twain: I guess you bisited mostly places that cater mainly to tourists. Service is included.
Yes, Russell, I think you are right about the mistake being in asking.
Alice, you probably didn't mean to do this but to say that a person patronized places that cater mainly to tourists is to impugn their taste. And when a traveler has planned out their vacation, this can seem really insulting.
Let's all eat wherever we want, and no judging!
M
Posts: 6925 | Location: Montclair, NJ, USA | Registered: 16 March 2003
Yes, on reading what I wrote it may sound so. Sorry! I basically meant that Russell might have had most of his meals in places that are accostumed to foreigners and to their habit of tipping, not in bad restaurants
By the way, itarchivarius (had to copy and paste that nickname, my typing skills are next to nothing these days), the service fee (and with this I mean the tip that goes directly to the waiter/waitress) cannot be included in the check. The check must be issued on a specific form called ricevuta fiscale (or scontrino fiscale, they are both valid) and must be printed in two copies, one of the business and one for the client. It's a legally valid document that is used to calculate the income of the business and, therefore, to calculate the taxes it has to pay. A sum of money that goes straight into the waiting persons' pockets cannot be added to itlegally, because it would make impossible to calculate correctly the taxes. What you usually find on the ricevuta is the coperto, which covers for the use of linens, cutlery and so on. Service fees are worked into the individual dishes' prices: each time one eats a 5 euro dish of pasta at an Italian restaurant he or she is paying 10% of that amount of money for the service.
Some guidebooks suggest asking "Is service included?", but this can result in a cultural misunderstanding. In Italy, service is not considered a separate item any more than electricity or table rental; it is just an integral part of the product delivered.
If you had asked at a store "Is service included?" the answer might be no, in the sense that a share of the salespeople's salaries is not directly added, but what you are paying will still be used to help cover those costs.
Certainly it would be ideal if, in all countries, one could have an expectation of good service at a restaurant as part of the price billed. This is so in Italy. It does not vary by establishment, and it has not changed over the years, so it is not necessary to ask.
I do not see the reference to tourist establishments as insulting in any way. The point is not whether the OP chose the restaurant well; the point is that at establishments known to tourists, the waiters are familiar with this confusion among their customers and have learned how to maximize their income.
Alice, I believe there is a misunderstanding, as the term "service" has a different meaning in USA and in Italy.
There are restaurants that will charge you a service fee (servizio, usually in the 5-15% range). This amount goes into the ricevuta fiscale (that now is no more compulsory as before, but still an official document). This service fee is not a tip going in the waiter's pocket; it goes to the restaurant owner, and it is not paid back to waiters. Basically, it is just a way to put lower prices into the menu and raise them with a surcharge when you are paying. It is still a service fee but has little relationship with the service fee in USA restaurants.
Uh, I have never yet hit one that does this. If I ever will I know what wil be of the place
And you ar eright, Ricevuta fiscale is not mandatoruy, but only as long as it is substituted by a scontrino fiscale. The only shops that can refrain from giving out either are bookshps and nesagents, for the only reason that on printed material (books, magazines, newspapers, comics...) the VAT is already paid. Any other place must give you either.
Originally posted by Alice Twain: Uh, I have never yet hit one that does this. If I ever will I know what wil be of the place
They are places where enough tourists have asked about service that the owners figure they can just add it and pocket it rather than letting the waiters get money left on the table. So you probably wouldn't encounter one in daily life!
We have a proverb which says "L'occasione fa l'uomo ladro" (more or less, chance makes human beings behave like thieves).
Never more relevant! Never ask, just pay what's on the bill.
The other possibility is that they understood that you were asking if what we called "coperto" was included. If this is the case, they might have answered no because the coperto was actually not charged. Some restaurants do.
I want to see the good side of human nature, and I hope this was the linguistic misunderstanding which actually pushed them to say no... but... to conclude with another proverb "lascia stare il can che giace..." (let the sleeping dog alone).
What you usually find on the ricevuta is the coperto, which covers for the use of linens, cutlery and so on.
Alice,
Yes, this is true. It also thoroughly amazes me! Having worked in the service industry for many years, the idea of actually charging for the use of the basics is unfathomable to me. I mean, what's the option? Pay for the food and eat it in their kitchen from the pots and pans with our bare hands?! I know this is the Italian way, but it is one that will forever be, well, just plain silly to me...
Originally posted by Alice Twain: Well, the idea of waiters relying on tips to make their day is just as unfathomable to us Italians. ^_^
So true! Why do we have to have the custom of tipping in restaurants? I know the concept is to reward good service. But we don't tip other people who provide a service... typesetters, consultants, doctors, for instance. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to tip in restaurants at all. Naturally the prices would be 15% higher to reflect this, but how much easier that would be to just pay the bill when it came, rather than sitting there trying to do math. And do you really think that the level of service would be any different? I think it's time for a change!
My rule is that unless the menu or bill clearly specifices that service is not included, I don't tip. I decided it's the restaurant's obligation to tell me if the waiters expect a tip. (I used to ask, but also felt like waiters were telling me no to make some extra euros.) So far it's worked--I haven't been chased down a calle by a screaming waiter.
In Italia si paga solo l'importo che appare sul conto. La mancia è facoltativa. Io mi comporto così: se voglio ringraziare il cameriere per un buon servizio gli lascio una mancia 8% 10%. Non lascio mai la mancia quando sono servito dal proprietario. In albergo do la mancia a chi sistema la camera, solo se mi fermo qualche giorno.
Posts: 104 | Location: Padova Italia | Registered: 17 May 2005
Having no interest in single-handedly reviving the Italian economy, I will hencefore make the assumption that service is included and will provide an additional 8%-10% ONLY if there is a clear indication that service is not included and ONLY if no service charge appears on the bill. It seems quite clear that the age-old custom of including service in the overall total has not changed, notwithstanding numerous waitstaff personnel who would have us believe otherwise.
Posts: 275 | Location: In the woods of Southern Connecticut | Registered: 30 March 2005
I can still remember the Little Italian restaurant I worked at in The SoHo area of NYC. We were paid $10 a shift cash(under the table, no less)! No wonder so many of my co-workers pocketed the checks and kept the cash. Our boss was a cheap you-know-what. Most restaurants pay the hourly minimum wage here in the states. Wait staff can only make ends meet by making decent tips. This is our way... I know I pay my staff incredibly well when they come and work with me. I know what it's like as I've been there. I like the idea of the service being included because it takes the pressure off of everyone. The waiter does his thing, knowing he'll get paid. The customer gets the check, pays it, and doesn't have to worry about what to leave. Not a bad way to go...
the idea of actually charging for the use of the basics is unfathomable to me
Personally, I would rather pay a small fee for things like real china and a cloth napkin as opposed to feeling obligated to give extra money to my server just because they brought my plate to me. Before I gets tons of angry posts from waiters --- I realize many work extremely hard and deserve far more than they are given --- but far too many servers I have encountered are not really very good and EXPECT that you leave them a tip. When I shop for clothes and the salesperson brings me another blouse to my fitting room I don't tip her....I don't tip the plumber....They provide a service and I pay for the service. I also do tip very well when I receive good service --- but I do not feel guilty leaving absolutely nothing when my service is bad....and I usually tell the server why I am not leaving a tip in the hopes that they can improve. The look on their faces generally tells me they will not.
But on to the real reason I post here..... During a dinner last month in Firenze when my friend asked for the bill the waiter asked whether or not we wanted a receipt. My friend said "Noooooo, absolutely not". When I asked him why, he told me that the bill would be less without the receipt --- which it was --- by about 40 euro. This happened again the next week at another restaurant. (Both of these spots were obviously establishments catering to locals as it seemed there were virtually no tourists there.) I am quite sure this is not legal BUT what I want to know is: Is it commonplace among the locals? Is there a secret out there you Italians aren't telling us tourists?
Posts: 690 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 14 January 2005
I think the Keyword is service.I don't think that just bringing the meal to a table is service.If the Italians don't tip then why should anyone else.The real service in a restaurant comes from the kitchen,The guy or gal that worked to make the quality meal you just recieved.I always give a tip to the Kitchen in most places I eat.I haven't see real service in years,real service is from the heart and soul of someone doing the job they were hired to do even if they don't get a tip........I just stopped tipping as much as I used to tip because service Isn't what it used to be.I will start tipping higher when I see good service come back........Take care.....Chef Bill....P.S. I will be in Venice and Rome in Sept I'll let ya know how it works out.
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but... to conclude with another proverb "lascia stare il can che giace..." (let the sleeping dog alone).
I know this is the Italian way, but it is one that will forever be, well, just plain silly to me... 
Our boss was a cheap you-know-what. Most restaurants pay the hourly minimum wage here in the states. Wait staff can only make ends meet by making decent tips. This is our way... 