Our neighbors were legally married in Italy this past spring. The formal cermony was inside a Museum in Siena. From their understanding a Catholic cermony must be performed inside. We would like to be married outside. Is this legally possible and under what denomination? We are from the States. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Steve and Serena
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A Catholic only wedding must be performed in a real church or chapel. A non Catholic wedding needs to be performed inside city hall (or in one of the rooms that city hall designates for weddings). If you wish to be married outside you could have a civil ceremony in city hall and then have someone perform a wedding for show (although it will not be the valid wedding).
Were your friends married inside of Palazzo Pubblico? This is partially a museum and part city hall and the room that is used is right off the area where there is the amazing depiction of the good and bad government so that is why they may have said it was a museum.
Just a side observation. As correctly Cristina writes, a civil marriage must be performed in the town hall (in a lot of places around here the town hall has some centuries and is house to both a museum and city administration), and a Catholic marriage is performed in a church or chapel. Some denominations (for example, the Episcopalians at St. James' in Florence) feel more free (but their marriages have no legal value).
What I find strange, from my old-Europe perspective, is asking which denominations would perform an open air marriage. Here belonging to a denomination is more binding than you think, and "shopping around" more difficult to understand. You would better change the place of the marriage, instead of changing the denomination.
As I already wrote, I remember an famous US rockstar trying to convince a country parish priest to have his church for his wedding - even offering a big sum of money, and God knows how the community would have needed that. There was no way (the rockstar got married at the Episcopalians, by the way). If you are not Catholic and you are not marrying under the Catholic way, you are not going to have a Catholic church, point.
Can't help with Catholic wedding. But according to my research some months ago, it is possible to have a civil wedding in the open air in the town halls of Certaldo and Positano.
Legally it si possible to have a civil marriage out in the open air. The only problem is to try to convince some legally authorized person to perform the marriage anywhere that is not the usual places. It's not a whim on their part. In large cities and towns marraiges are tightly scheduled. Places like Rome or Milano perform some fifty marriages per day, at several locations, while in smaller towns marraiges are fewwer but they are often performed on Saturdays only, so that each week there are 4-5 marriages to celebrate. In even smaller places, often once the marraige is celebrated the appointed person moves ack to his/her office to perform other tasks. Performing outside the "usual" places means to remove a civil servant from his or her job for several hours, causing a small but not irrelevant loss of money for the city otr town administration. This is why marriages are performed at the comune or in another similar designed place.
Originally posted by itarchivarius: a civil marriage must be performed in the town hall and a Catholic marriage is performed in a church or chapel. Some denominations (for example, the Episcopalians at St. James' in Florence) feel more free (but their marriages have no legal value).
Perhaps I'm missing something here. My understanding was that every marriage, to be legal, must have a civil component, and that even those married in the Catholic Church must also have a civil ceremony. Is this not true? Also, is it true that the usual custom is to have the civil ceremony first, with few attendees (other than the required witnesses), followed by the religious ceremony?
If that is the case, it would be theoretically possible to have an outdoor wedding if you could find a priest (Roman or Anglican) who would perform the religious ceremony in an outdoor location, after having first had a civil marriage performed in one of the usual locations.
ellen
Posts: 2933 | Location: mahwah, new jersey, usa | Registered: 10 December 2003
It was true until the 1984 Patti Lateranensi, which reformed the 1929 pacts signed by the church and the Fascist state. Until then one first had to get a small civil "cerimony" (usually a brief private thing performed a couple of days before the actual marriage, basically a paper signing), than performed the religious cerimony. After the new pacts, you just prepare all the requier papers with the comune, but the signing is performed during the religious marriage (if catholic), than the papers are transmitted to the comune. The main reformed community in Italy is the union of methodists and waldensians, and I think it works the same with them since they also have asigned a similar pact with the Italian state. The same applies for the Jewish community.
Yes, Ellens, you are missing that since 1929 Catholic parish priests, following a set joint procedure with the relevant town hall offices, can perform religious marriages having civil value - sort of two cerimonies compressed into one: after the religious cerimony, the priest must read relevant articles of the civil code, and write out the official act that is sent back to the town hall offices.
There are similar agreements between the Italian state and other denominations (notably, Waldesians and Italian Baptists), but some of the major denominations not having large followings in Italy have no agreements. In this case, a civil marriage should be performed before the religious one.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. When my great grandparents got married in Naples in 1896 or so, the civil ceremony was several days prior to the church wedding. Talk about dated information! It's nice to know that it has been made more convenient now.
Another question, somewhat related. American Catholic priests I've known cover a pretty wide range of adherence to church rules and regulations. Some interpret quite strictly, others take a more "liberal" approach. I know the American Catholic Church operates somewhat differently from the Italian Church, so what I've seen here may not also happen there. That said, is it ever possible to find an Italian Catholic priest who would conduct a ceremony outside of a church building?
ellen
Posts: 2933 | Location: mahwah, new jersey, usa | Registered: 10 December 2003
itarchivarius: the 1929 Patti Lateranensi signed by Mussolini did not give catholic priests the power to legalize marriages. The 1984 Patti Lateranensi II signed by Bettino Craxi did, and in exchange they did remove the Catholic Religion from the mandatory subjects in school.
I never heard about an outdoor Catholic marriage in Italy, but it could not be absolutely ruled out. It may be extremely difficult, however, due to a trick in the 1929 agreement. According to the agreement, the parish priest can act as a civil officer, but this power is entrusted only to the chief parish priest and only in the territory of his parish. Any other priest (say, one performing the marriage outside his territory) must have a proxy (either a long term one, or a special one) of the competent parish priest, or the competent parish priest should be present even if not performing.
So, maybe an outdoor marriage can be arranged - this already sounds difficult. But the thing can be done only with the consent of the parish priest compentent for that territory - so maybe you have to convince two priests, and this sounds much more difficult. Add that some places (often on a diocesis basis) rule out marriages if at least one of the couple is not a local parish member, and the thing looks truly difficult.
Some of the same difficulties apply here as well, depending on the priest, the parish, diocese, etc. I know of at least one outdoor Catholic wedding here, but it was on the campus of a Catholic university, performed by a Franciscan campus ministry priest in a grotto very near the university chapel.
ellen
Posts: 2933 | Location: mahwah, new jersey, usa | Registered: 10 December 2003
Itarchivarious, the 1929, as I have already stated, are not valid anymore, they have been substituted by the new pacts signed in 1984. I don't know what are the new rule,s since I am not a cathlic, but don't use the 1929 pacts as a guideline because they are not valid anymore.
(as you can see, all the relevant laws date back to 1929, namely law 810 and law 847, both of 27/05/29)
The 1984 revision changed a lot of things (for example, state contribution to Catholic churches, and - if I am not wrong - some details on annulments of marriages and put limits of marriages of minors), but the joint marriage is in place in Italy since 1929.
Itarchivarious: the fact is that my mom used to work at the Sesto San Giovanni comune (city administration) , and for a certain period she worked at the Stato Civile office, where the marriages were performed. Until 1984, everyone who wanted a religious marriage was to have first a civil "paper signing" thing. Even in amoderately small towns linke ours there was quite a line of people waiting for signing the documents on some days.
Alice, I was married in 1995 and helped arrange some other marriages (including one, particulary difficult, with a French girl marrying a relative of mine, that could not be done as a concordatary marriage).
Before any marriage, civil or religious, you have to arrange an appointment at the stato civile office, informally called "prendere il consenso". During that meeting, the official controls that all papers are in order, and asks for some crucial questions about the future marriage, the most important being the future patrimonial status of the couple (all future homes and business, for example, will be joint or individual property? the choice can be later reversed, but with considerable difficulty and can be crucial if a separation or divorce or patrimonal problems such a bankruptcy ensue.)
Actually this meeting is sort of drawing a pre-nuptial arrangment. If everything is OK, the official issues a "permit to marry", valid for six months (if memory does not fail me) and only for the municipal territory in which the marriage will take place (if you decide to change place or delay the marriage, you may have to do it again).
After that, you just have to perform the marriage, that can be done either at the town hall or in church (in this case, the parish church will have to check the papers on the religious side, and also check that you have the permit to marry from the stato civile office).
By the way, this is still the present procedure. I remember that for my marriage in 1995, the appointment with the stato civile office in Milano had to be taken with a couple of weeks' advance, and for some reason my future mother-in-law had to be present. The actual marriage was almost a simpler thing.
While for the civil ceremony there are restrictions on the places where you can have it, for the religious ceremony there are less restrictions.
An important aspect to take into consideration though, is that the religious wedding is a sacrament, not a street party, and therefore it should be celebrated in a consecrated place, such a church. If you find an understanding priest, willing to celebrate the ceremony outdoor, he needs to consecrate the place in advance.
Weddings are not allowed during Lent and, something curious but true, brides are not allowed to have a purse in the religious ceremony. They can only have a flower bouquet.
Itarchivarious, I will check with my mom, but I remeber clearly that in 1984 we talked quite a lot about the issue and the fact that I was not going to sit through the catholic religion lessons at school ^_^
Before getting married Italian citizens still have to go to the "comune" (town hall) to sign the papers for the "pubblicazioni". Essentially these are a sort of announcement about your wedding. You have to declare to the community that you are about to get married, so that if somebody has some legal reason to oppose the merriage, they can do so.
Nowadays it's a proforma, but it's mandatory.
You have to go to the "ufficio anagrafe" at least 15 days in advance. The "pubblicazioni" will be made publicly available for 8 days plus 3 in which they will be available at the office.
In the past, it was necessary to have "witnesses" for the pubblicazioni as well. Now it's not necessary.
It's not even necessary that both bride and groom go there. One of them is enough, provided he has a proxy for the other person and a copy of his/her ID card.
After the 8+3 days the office gives the couple the "certificato di avvenuta pubblicazione" (the certificate stating that the whole procedure was performed). This certificate must be brought to the priest who can then marry the couple.
For foreigners I think that it is necessary to obtain a permit from the embassy. They must declare that you are not married in your own country I imagine.
My sister-in-law had a really hard time obtaining this from the Canadian embassy.
The actual legal marriage though happens only at the end of the religious ceremony (of course, if you choose this type of marriage).
The priest will read the articles of the codice civile and the bride and groom will be asked to sign the paper and the "witnesses" too.
You will be asked if you want to have the community of assets or not. You have to decide then.
If you want to keep your assets separate you will have to sign in a particular space. Otherwise, the community is authomatic.
For Italian citizens who want to merry in a church the "corso prematrimoniale" (pre-wedding course) is also compulsory. It's usually a series of 8 meetings with the would-be wife and husband organised by a parish (not necessarily the one where they get married).
If it's different though they have to provide another certificate.
I have no idea about the dates of possible changes but this is how it works nowadays.
Our neighbors were legally married in Italy this past spring. The formal cermony was inside a Museum in Siena. From their understanding a Catholic cermony must be performed inside. We would like to be married outside. Is this legally possible and under what denomination? We are from the States. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Steve and Serena
Good luck on your wedding. I will just recommend that you think seriously about hiring an Italian wedding planner to guide you through the details and regulations for foreigners marrying in Italy. I think you will find it is not a project that should be left to amateurs.
I must pose this question which has been hitching on my fingers for a while...
why do people choose to take the hassle of getting married in Italy, when they could so much easily get married at home with family and friends and then come to Italy and take all the beautiful pictures on their honeymoon? And without the bourocratic troubles!!!
I am sorry if this sounds silly... I am just very curious.
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