We've been looking for an apartment in Rome for 2 couples, and in the process I discovered something which Pauline thinks I should post -- BE CAREFUL about the price you pay, since there is a huge discrepancy between different agencies for the SAME property. I can give you 2 examples. For the same apartment, Italian Vacation Villas wanted from $2530 to $2785 depending on the season, Rome Sweet Home wanted $2178/week, and Italian Itineraries (http://www.italian-itineraries.com) wanted $1540. For another property, Homebase Abroad wanted $2900, Doorways Ltd. wanted $2434, and once again Italian Itineraries asked only $1935. Fellow slow travelers, that is $1,000 difference for the same apartment for the same time period. So please do your research, and save yourself some money. I would add that Italian Itineraries, which has a good review here from moderator Amy, is based in Australia, and Aussies are well-known for wanting a bargain. Whatever the reason, its prices are outstanding, and it will be the first place I look from now on.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kim,
Posts: 1472 | Location: Sunset Beach (Haleiwa), Hawaii, USA | Registered: 16 September 2001
Thanks for posting your research Ann. When I am looking for a vacation rental, I find one I like, then Google it to see what other agencies list it. If the difference is small (say $50 - $100 a week), I might decide to book with the agency I have had good experiences with. But if the difference is significant, go with the cheapest agency.
If the price difference is huge, and you have already started inquiries with the more expensive agency, tell the agency the price you have found elsewhere so they have the chance to match it.
Some agents tell me that they have to set prices in US dollars at the beginning of the season so have to add in something to protect themselves if the US dollar goes up (because their contract with the owners is in Euro).
In 2001 I was searching for an apartment in Sorrento and found one listed with local agents, a larger Italy agent and a US agent. All prices were different. I booked with the local agents who had the lowest price. If I had booked with the US agent, I would have dealt with the local agency anyway when I arrived. I have some pricing details on this page: Fall 2001 Trip Report
Here are the differences for one week in September: Area Vacanze $675 (local agent) Casa Club $870 (Italian agency) Internet Villas $985 (US agency) > In the end it was not a great apartment, but worth the lower price we paid. I would have been more unhappy with the apartment at that higher price.
Some agencies, like the Parker Company, rename their properties so you cannot do this price comparison. For example, these are the same place: Casa Galante La Canonica
High season $1865/wk from Parker Co, no prices on the owner's site but he quoted me around $1200/wk last year.
In looking for apartments in Lucca for October, I also found big price discrepancies among agencies. Further, I have heard that some owners, once you are renting, offer discounts by contacting them directly should you return. These discrepancies are not only difficult for vacationers, but for the agencies, which vary tremendously in their range of services. Doorways, for example, whose owner is a friend of mine, publishes a lovely restaurant guide, reading list, and other offerings to its clients, and will arrange trips from soup to nuts, all services that are time-intensive, sometimes costly, and not always getting them a commission for their efforts, so for people who can afford and need those services, the trade-off of higher rental prices is a good one. But the business must be a struggle, especially with greater supply and demand off pretty much worldwide. I've also heard of bait and switch tactics where a property is listed at a bargain price but then never "available."
Posts: 2054 | Location: Suburban Philadelphia | Registered: 08 July 2002
Another way I've found to try to compare prices is to Google it using the location - for example, the street name in a large city like Rome. How in the world did you find out, Pauline, that Casa Galante and La Canonica were the same -- the pix aren't even that similar!
Posts: 1472 | Location: Sunset Beach (Haleiwa), Hawaii, USA | Registered: 16 September 2001
I found the La Canonica web site during some searching and contacted the owner to look at the apartment when we were staying in the area (to see about it for a possible long term rental). It was a very weird meeting because he was convinced I was from an agency trying to get their listing, but told me they had just listed with the Parker Company.
I agree it is difficult for the agencies. Those of you who have followed my posts or read the web site know that I favor booking with agencies - not directly with owners. I would rather find a good agency that I can trust to be honest in their descriptions, so that I can book with them again and again but stay in different places. Doorways is a good agency.
I think a change needs to be made with pricing. If an owner lists a place himself/herself plus with agencies, they need to have one price. It does not make sense to me for an owner to have a price and then the agencies add on their commission, but the owner on his site charges the original price - even though he does all the booking work.
On the other hand, I don't want to pay $1000 more to get a restaurant list and a map.
I think this will all sort itself out in the next few years. Internet booking has changed the vacation rental business - the changes are still happening.
Steve just reminded me that when comparing prices of the same place, be sure to count in cleaning fees. Some agencies include them, some add them on extra. Be sure you are comparing apples to apples. I don't think this accounts for the difference Ann found in the Rome apartment.
Maybe some of our agency members would like to comment on price differences like this?
This is a slightly different subject, but I think it fits here -- at least this thread reminded me that I've wanted to ask you this: what is the reason that prices are totally omitted from the reviews posted on this site? I realize that exact prices change weekly and shouldn't be given, but it would be helpful to me to know the price range. Could a system be developed to indicate that? For example, in my reviews could I indicate a price of, say, "under $500 (or â¬500) per week"? It would save time, I think, if I knew a place was out of my pricerange up front.
It is just too much work for me. And it would be out of date in a year. Already I look up the agency or web site and check the listing to be sure the name is right and check the location, then I have to be sure the agency or place is on our listings page (although I have fallen behind on that). It doesn't sound like much, but I end up spending time with each review. Having to be sure the price the reviewer listed is correct would add more time and many places do not have price on the web site.
Prices only make sense when you think of them per person, per night. Then you have to decide what season to use - agencies use different time periods for high, medium and low season.
Funny, I just had a private email about this same topic. Libbie, your real name isn't "Bill" is it?
I guess one solution would be to come up with a price range (done with per person, per night - per person for the number of people a place accommodates, not the number of people who stayed there with the reviewer to do a fair comparison) and let the reviewer work out the per person/per night and I would not check up on it.
Or I could just add a field asking the cost someone paid per week and let people fill it in if they like. But I can imagine the agencies emailing me if someone gets it wrong.
I am an owner. The owner want a price.Usually in is own web site there is the price he wants. He advertise (paying) on one or two sites. And even there is written the price he want. Some sites, or Agencies, say to the owner they can find customers. And put on the price the owners want what they want. Someone works whith a reasonable 10-20 %. Others work for 30, 50 or 100% more. I think there is something wrong (having internet)in this market in the fact that "distribution costs" are, sometimes, about the same than "production costs".In renting often happens. The real problem is what does the agency for you. Simple shows something in internet? Rent by the owner. Or helps you in a lot of things, beginning by planning travel, tickets, reservations...? This is an work, and we shall pay for. The idea of Pauline about prices seems good.
I'll never forget when the owners of a local agriturisnmo that my partents stayed at last Christmas told me that they were listed in Parker Villas. I told them that I don't remember them being in it and they told me that they had changed the name in the catalog. When I got home I looked at the price that PV had and it was double what we paid. So those beautiful catalogs may seem free but the people who rent from that catalog are paying for you to get it for free.
If coming to Tuscany get the catalog and also get the book Agriturismo Italia written by Regione Toscana & Toscana Promozione and compare. This book is wonderful. Does not have a lot of pictures or price lists but it gives you the websites and phone numbers so you can shop directly with the owners.
Cristina A San Franciscan in Siena Read my report on the Palio di Siena
[This message was edited by Pauline on December 14, 2002 at 12:02 PM.]
If the "agency" does nothing except make the property available to your attention, you should do anything you can to get around Internet prices, which are, as I've often said, yes, absolutely outrageous. $1000 to $2000 a week for a rental property, short of a mansion, is ridiculously out of line, and for those of you who -- reasonably -- prefer to spend your money on concerts, side trips, fabulous meals, or shoes on the Condotti, spending it on your sleeping is throwing it out the window.
Last trip, 2-bedroom apartment with fabulous view, washing machine, kitchen of course, etc.: $700/month (not week). Previous trips, similar prices, in the touristy towns of Todi for a modern all-conveniences and Spello, 3-bedroom with rooftop terrace.
On your first trip to Italy, take a notebook along and go talk to people.
Bill- Have you reviewed those apartments that you mentioned? Can you provide links for them as I am interested in that area for next year. Thanks, colleenk
Posts: 2638 | Location: Cambridge, MA | Registered: 18 August 2001
No reviews, although details and some pictures in my diary.
Todi, in Sep-Nov 1994, was actually thru an agency, but a local one, no Internet. The price is surely out of date, but was 800,000 lire per month, which at the time was $500/month.
Spello, in Aug-Nov 1997 and Aug-Nov 1998, was the Ca' Spadolino of Walter Zurlo's, where Pauline stayed too, and thus there must be a review onboard; I rented directly from Walter, which now he does not do, but has agencies; when I last priced them, they were exactly double what he was charging others. I say others because I seem to have inadvertently finagled a special price lower still.
Fossato di Vico, in Jun-Sep 2000, was again direct with the owner. She is not at all set up to do the "vacation rental" thing, and certainly has no website, neither is anyone else handling the property: therefore, although it was just fine, I would not recommend it to someone who needs pampering or who cannot fend for themselves in both Italian and the mechanics of living in a small Italian town.
Dog, who'd been whimpering (this is Dog in a more restful mood -- --) and I are back from our walk and are less hurried now; and I find I could be a bit more helpful by adding some details.
My main point is that the slow traveler need not be at the mercy of exorbitant prices, but we have to do our homework. Once we've been to Italy once, the problem is solved, of course, since we take notes as we meet people; that's how I rented the place in Fossato: here are the basic details as contemporaneously set down.
Spello, Walter was online at the time; my good price was in part because I took the house for a solid 3 months, in part because I helped field some of his e-mail in foreign languages, and on one occasion, immediately after the 1997 earthquake, actually saved a rental of his to other tourists.
But Todi, which was my first time, and which was well before the explosion of the Web? I placed a phone call to the APT in Todi, and asked: "Who rents apartments?" They gave me a list -- that's their job -- and I got on the horn, asked a few questions; the first number I called, the answers sounded good, I trusted them, and it was. I have an OK-ish page, although the photos could have been better scanned, on the apartment here.
I do have contact details for the Spello apartments: In Urbe web.tiscali.it/inurbe - web site not complete yet email:inurbe@mclink.it
Walter Zurlo runs this local agency in Spello with several very small apartments (mini-apartments) and a few larger apartments. Walter does not speak much English. These apartments can also be booked through Gorgacce Rentals or Vacanza Bella.
I'll second Pauline on the micro-apartments (with names of gemstones, Perla, Esmeralda, Topazio, etc.). I stayed in one for a few days, just me and a tiny window, and just about went crazy.
As an operator of one of the agencies mentioned in the price comparison by Ann, I feel compelled to reply.
First, it is important to provide all the information that Ann did not provide. When she mentioned the price of Italian Itineraries, she talked about a price of $1,500 or so. I've gone to their web site and see that the scale they are quoting is from $1,540 to $2,800 - - quite a diffence when you look at it in this light.
Second, it is also important to see what is included in rentals. Some rentals are all inclusive with the exception of heating and telephone while many have extra charges for all utilities and final cleaning. So when people are spending time comparing prices, it is imperative that people be comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges.
The above being said, let me make a few points. This is a free market with lots of offerings. Undoubtedly, renting directly from an owner is cheaper than going through an agency. Few owners provide agencies with commissions, so agencies are obliged to mark up properties. (We are told by many that our mark-ups are among the lowest in the industry.) Right there you create a price differential.
As agency owners, we travel to Italy twice a year to inspect personally properties that we represent - - even those we represent through Italian management agencies. We take our own pictures and notes are are prepared to share these with clients who want to know what they are getting. We also provide many anciliary services as well as answering numerous questions.
The internet provides people with a new set of options. Some people are perfectly satisfied with renting directly utilizing this methods. Some want additional assistance and that is why agencies exist. Some people also want it both ways. They want to rent through the internet but also spend a lot of time contacting agencies and milking them of information about properties, things to do, places to go, driving in Italy, itineraries, etc. etc.
Just letting off a little steam since the post was a bit unfair!!!!
I must respond to the charge that I was unfair. If one reads the price for the apartment in question on the Italian Itineraries web site CAREFULLY, this is what is says: "US$1,540 A$2,800" -- this is NOT a range of prices which I was charged with misquoting, but the quotation of one price, first in US dollars and then in Australian dollars, since the agency is located in Australia. I have no axe to grind here, and I don't like being accused of distorting the data.
Posts: 1472 | Location: Sunset Beach (Haleiwa), Hawaii, USA | Registered: 16 September 2001
I have to stand up for Ann on this one. While I think Martin makes some excellent points re comparing apples to apples, and the services one may be paying for with an agency, I didn't think Ann was being "unfair" in sharing her information and observations (any more than Martin was being "unfair" in sharing his).
I like this site because on the whole, people are honest and able to disagree on occasion but in a cordial and positive way.
Thanks, Tracy -- and perhaps I should apologize for the tone of my reaction to Martin's charge that I was unfair, although not its content. I agree completely that one of the wonderful things about this board is its cordial, positive tone and the civilized way people contribute. But I would NEVER have misquoted a price in a post that deals specifically with prices -- the attorney in me is still too strong to be that unfair or that sloppy! I confess, however, that being a slow traveler is a lot more fun than practicing law.
Posts: 1472 | Location: Sunset Beach (Haleiwa), Hawaii, USA | Registered: 16 September 2001
Folks, let's remember to be respectful and calm when replying to postings. How you respond can be just as important as what you say. If anyone has a problem with a post, kindly discuss it privately with a Moderator in order to not disrupt the friendly tone of the Board.
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