BGE: Wicked by Gregory Macguire! Hi, welcome to Book Chat!
KHB: Hi there, wait let me change my color
BGE: ok, no problem...
KHB: How about purple?
BGE: I think green is the default colour here… … sure, pick your favorite! Hi, Ginger...
suncoast: Hi Guys
KHB: I haven't been to a book chat in ever so long, the idea of Wicked made me put it on my calendar
BGE: Hoo-hoo! That's a great thing! I really want to see the musical for this book.
KHB: Especially when I heard you all talking about how much you hated it!
BGE: Well, there's that, too!
KHB: I want to see the musical, too
BGE: I'm not finished, struggling a lot to read it. Did you love it?
KHB: I have to confess, I did. I've read it twice
BGE: That's the great thing about books...everyone gets something different from each one we read.
KHB: Yes, and it depends on what your expectations are from a book and what you've read in the past
BGE: I think that, also! AND where you are in your life at the moment you read a book also has a lot to do with it, I think.
suncoast: Hi again, I may be in and out with the birds.
BGE: No problem, Ginger...
suncoast: Tell what you liked about it.
BGE: Krista...share!
suncoast: I thought it was god-awful. Just one stereotype and cliche after another.
suncoast: And VERY hard to read!
KHB: Ok, I'll give the contrary point of view... first off, I loved the Wizard of Oz series when I was little so this was calling out my name from the shelf on the bookstore the minute I saw it
KHB: Also, I really books that tell a common story from a different point of view
BGE: So, the point of view of each of the characters?
KHB: And then there's the fact that love George Orwell's 1984, and this book has lots of shades of that going on
BGE: I agree, that it does.
KHB: Well, I just like the fact that the author takes the so-called evil character in a story we all know and tells her story with so much complexity and food for thought
suncoast: It seemed that he plagiarized from everybody, the map was a direct lift from The Lord of the Rings ands also the Star Wars similarities were hard to miss
BGE: It was interesting to me that he wrote about her before she became the wicked witch!
KHB: the map is taken right from the original Oz books, but I wouldn't call that plagiarism, he's playing off that.
BGE: Wonder where he got the idea to do that? Write about her life before, I mean...
suncoast: But it didn't mean anything, it had absolutely nothing in common with the Oz books except the characters names
KHB: It's sort of an epic... telling her story from birth to death
BGE: Can I ask what caused her to become the wicked witch, 'cause I'm not there yet.
KHB: I think it's all about perception. People perceive her as wicked and call her that and write her story that way, but is she really wicked? That's the theme of the book
suncoast: He's imposing psychobabble id's on all the characters
BGE: Why do you think he did that, Ginger?
suncoast: To sell books
KHB: Well, ok, there are some things that I didn't like about the book, sometimes it gets bogged down in psychobabble
BGE: maybe that's why.... or maybe to tell the contrary side of the story?
suncoast: Much Ado about Nothing, to quote a real writer. Fine, tell her story but do it in the same style as the original
BGE: Ginger, what about it touched you so negatively?
suncoast: This witch had nothing in common with Baum's Wicked Witch
KHB: I'm pretty impressed that he was able to create such a complicated and interesting world within the confines of the original book and movie. He went above and beyond in a way that was appealing to me.
BGE: Ok, except he didn't write the original, so maybe that changes everything! Like the prequel for Gone With the Wind, written by someone other than Margaret Mitchell...same kind of thing, maybe?
suncoast: I HATED SCARLETT!!!
BGE: Ginger, hahahahaha!
KHB: Exactly - that's the beauty of the book! He plays with the whole idea of fairy tales and how the reality behind a story is completely different
BGE: Krista, like peeling layers away from an onion? So, it's like revealing that it is no fairy tale, then?
suncoast: But that's what was wrong, it wasn't a fairy tale, it was this wierd mix of modern crap, and sci-fi and the bastardization of Oz
KHB: Yes, the layers and how in order to tell a fairy tale, details are left out, morals are injected, good and evil are polarized. But the 'real' story behind the fairy tale is so much more interesting
KHB: Instead of bastardization of Oz, I would like to think of it as an alternate reality of Oz. An Oz for grownups.
BGE: I think I'd like to see inside of his mind to understand why he chooses to write his books...an interesting look at the traditional fairy tale and children's stories...
KHB: Well, I've read a number of his other books, and that is his common theme
suncoast: Okay, WTH was Elphaba green?
BGE: I'm always so fascinated by the why of a book...makes me want to know the author better, whether I like the book or not.
KHB: He wrote a book loosely based on Cinderella placed in tulip crazed Amsterdam and he wrote a Snow White in medieval Italy.
BGE: Did you love them?
KHB: I didn't like them as much as I liked Wicked, but I liked them
BGE: Snow White sounds great! Medieval Italy..wow, what an imagination.
suncoast: He tries very hard to make her into a archetype anti-hero but I just didn't buy it.
BGE: So, why WAS Elphaba green?
suncoast: Envy
KHB: He must have wanted to keep that visual depiction because of the movie. In the book I don't think she was green
BGE: I've looked at quite a few Youtube clips of the musical... Great songs in the stage production. Have either of you read any reviews of the musical or have you seen it, maybe? She's GREEN, alright!
KHB: I don't know much about the musical, but I'd love to see it
suncoast: I just didn't find her compelling as the focus of a novel and Dorothy was a airhead
BGE: Was Dorothy like that in The W of OZ, do you think?
KHB: Didn't you feel any sympathy for Elphaba?
suncoast: No, she was a whiney, untruthful character. And WTH was the Time Dragon Clock supposed to represent?
KHB: In the original book, Dorothy was a very practical, down to earth farm girl. In Wicked, he plays off that, but makes her seem dense and fairly stupid.
BGE: Yeah, sympathy, because she began as a child without guile and then bad things took over....I thought Dorothy was Judy Garland and have never been able to separate the two of them in my mind...weird! When I think of Dorothy as a character, I see Judy’s face instead.
suncoast: And you do realize that Fiero was the name of the horse in Marnie, a story about a woman with childhood issues
KHB: I read the book around the same time I saw the movie for the first time, when I was around seven, so I don't immediately think of the movie when I think of the story
suncoast: And I didn't get her relationship with Liir at all. Or Sarima for that matter.
BGE: I have never read the Oz books, only seen the movie, so I have no basis for comparison.
KHB: The books are very different from the movie…the movie is more fairy tale than the books. I read somewhere that Baum wanted to write a more down to earth anti-fairy tale children's book
BGE: It's always so interesting to me when we have divergent opinions about a book...one person feels one way and another feels the opposite way, and yet, we can all hang out and get along! Amazing!!!!! Did you read all of his books? Ginger, Krista?
suncoast: I didn't like his treatment of the animals either, for all his posturization about how Elphaba was an animal rights activist. She treated her own appallingly. She acted like a god to them. Trying to make them talk and performing horrible lab experiments on the monkeys. SEWING ON WINGS!!!
KHB: Well, I certainly get how some people would not like Wicked. it's a very different sort of book.
suncoast: I like the idea of Wicked, I just don't like how he told it.
BGE: I think he's done quite a brilliant thing, taking on the fairy tales and childhood books and making a story for adults based on kids' stories.
suncoast: Turning Oz into the Evil Empire just didn't do it for me.
BGE: Like Daughter of the Forest...a book for adults based on an old fairy tale.
KHB: Well, it must be the combination of the 1984-ish Animal Farm quality with the familiarity of the Oz back-story that appeals to me,
BGE: I'm somewhere in the middle between you. I'm struggling to read it, don't love it and don't not love it,...still reading.
suncoast: She never did accomplish anything and WTH did Nessarose represent?
KHB: I was a Political Science major before I changed to Film Studies, so maybe that's partly what appeals to me
BGE: Was this his first novel about fairy tales, or were the others done first?
KHB: No, he wrote children's stories that were loosely based on fairly tales. Since Wicked, he has stuck with adult fiction, but still the fairy tale tie-in
BGE: Ok, thanks...this is the first I'd heard of his books.
suncoast: I'm sorry if I sound so negative, but turning the Ruby Slippers into a politcal weapon just seems wrong somehow.
KHB: Oh, and there's a sequel, too "Son of a Witch."
BGE: So he has a great sense of humour! Great title...
KHB: Well, they were originally silver slippers.
BGE: Ginger, not negative...that's how the book was for you. I feel that way about some books also. I think it's where we are at the point in our lives when we read a certain book.
KHB: Ginger, I can see how you could not like this book, there are plenty of things not to like. Parts of it are dull, some of it is disturbing, but I guess I just really like the totality, the scope of what he attempts, and in my opinion, achieves.
BGE: Read it a few years later, and we see it differently, sometimes. Would it be a book that kids or teens would relate to or like, do you think?
KHB: Or, just chalk it up to not liking a certain author's style
suncoast: He's just not a good writer. I never felt like I could root for any character or feel like their was a resolution
BGE: Did either of you read The Life of Pi by Yan Martel?
KHB: Yes! I hated the ending!
suncoast: I LOVED THAT BOOK
BGE: I definitely did not like it and all of my book club loved it....
KHB:
suncoast: It was quite thought provoking.
BGE: I told them I thought it was a total waste of paper!
KHB: I started off liking it, but then it bogged down for me and then I found the ending was a cheat.
BGE: Maybe I just didn't get it, but for me it was a struggle from the middle of the book, onwards.
suncoast: How the human mind can make the most horrible thing a story in order to survive.
BGE: But, what was the tiger thing in the boat all about? That lost me completely.
KHB: For some reason, I was expecting more from it.
suncoast: Was it a real tiger, or was it him? You don't know.
BGE: You're right, I didn't... but I wanted something a little more balanced or clear.
KHB: I heard an interview with the author and he sounded so interesting. I thought the book was going to be more about philosophy.
suncoast: Did he have to turn into the tiger to survive?
KHB: I wanted more explanation from the book, more.... something.
BGE: It was a muddle for me, trying to read it and then I finally got to the end and was just so pissed off that it ended that way.
suncoast: It does leave you thinking about the story.
BGE: So interesting!
KHB: It's a good book to talk about, very popular with book clubs.
BGE: Each opinion varies...I love this! Yes, book clubs generally like it, I think.
KHB: And you know, come to think of it, I read Life of Pi after I had read Wicked, and I was hoping it would be more like Wicked, that's partly what I didn't like about it.
suncoast: Yes, I do like it when a book makes you really think about things. I have actually toyed with the idea of reading Wicked again, because I did have such a strong reaction to it.
suncoast: I had to read Beloved 3 times to get it.
KHB: Yes, I should read Life of Pi again, I'd probably like it better the second time around.
BGE: I think that's a good idea...the first book I read for my book club ages ago was The Shipping News by Annie Proulx.
KHB: I think I read that a while ago.
suncoast: I haven't read that one.
BGE: HATED it. HATED the negative black characters and the negative black storyline.
KHB: Oh, no, actually I saw the movie…I really like the movie.
BGE: EVERYONE else loved it! I felt like a witch, because I was the only one not liking the book that everyone else loved totally. My first meeting with a club that had benn together for years!! YIKES I was also a little embarrassed!
KHB: Kevin Spacey was fantastic, and I love the director.
BGE: She wrote Brokeback Mountain, also. I love Kevin Spacey...great actor.
suncoast: I don't think he filled in Elphaba enough. I never understood her relationship or lack there of with anybody.
BGE: Did you just read it, Ginger or was it a while ago that you read it?
suncoast: I love Kevin Spacey, too.
KHB: Yes, I think there could have more explanation of her character, but I think that's a choice he made, to show us what she was like and let us make our own decisions about whether she was wicked. He doesn't glamorize her or make us like her.
BGE: Wicked is in the eye of the beholder, sometimes...what I see as wicked in someone is dependant on my experience about that person. Someone else can have a different experience with that person and have a vastly different opinion.
KHB: So true.
suncoast: She wasn't wicked, she was boring.
KHB: And I love how he portrays Glinda "the good witch." Oh, I don't think she was boring, odd, perhaps, unfathomable perhaps, but not boring.
BGE: See, having not read the original books, I don't know about the characters...that might have been helpful if I'd at least read the first book.
suncoast: And predictible.
KHB: Well, I don't think you need to know the whole Oz series, he draws mostly off the movie, somewhat off the original W of O, but only a little off the rest of the series. It would perhaps help with the whole Ozma story, I guess.
BGE: Can I ask where does the book end, in her life? Does it move into the Wizard of Oz storyline? Seeing as I've not read that book.
KHB: The book ends pretty much with the death of the witch.
BGE: Happy, happy....yikes!
KHB: There are a few pages of wrap up with the characters. It's not a depressing ending, I don't think. I guess because you know she has to die at the hands of Dorothy somehow, that it's just an inevitable ending.
suncoast: That the other thing, the ending tries so very hard to impose modern angt's to the ending.
BGE: This makes me think about the rest of what I'm going to read in this book, and a good thing to hear both of your perspectives about it.
suncoast: I felt like it was a chore to read, I did not look forward to reading it. It felt like work.
BGE: So, I'll be able to look at it from either side while I read! Some books are like that for me, also, Ginger...like running in deep water.
suncoast: And the only reason I did finish it was because I recommended the darn thing
KHB: Well, when I first read it, it wasn't for a book group, so it was purely my choice to read it. Sometimes that helps.
BGE: Ha-HA! So, you're to blame!
KHB: Ginger, you might have had extremely high expectations for it, too.
suncoast: You have made some very good points, and I do agree that it does make for good theater. I felt it really would have been better as a comic book.
BGE: Krista, did you read it because you'd read a review or because you saw it on a bookstore shelf and wanted to read it? Still, I would want to see the musical.
KHB: I was walking through the bookstore and the cover art jumped out at me. I picked it up and read the first chapter and was hooked.
suncoast: The concept is quite novel. The idea of telling the story from her point of view is brilliant. I just wish it would have been a story I could have bought.
KHB: Did you ever read the Mists of Avalon?
suncoast: Loved it.
KHB: Me too! I love the idea of a familiar story told from another point of view!
suncoast: I also read all of Mary Steward's Merlin Trilogy at least a dozen times.
KHB: Yep, me too.
BGE: Mists of Avalon is one of my all-time favorite books...strong women and not weak servants to the guys. LOVED it, read it every few years.
suncoast: I have always also loved the movie Excaliber. Have you all seen it?
KHB: Yes, I've read it about 3 times and I'm sure I'll read it again.
suncoast: I am now listening to Tennyson's Idil's of the King.
BGE: Nope, is it good? Who is in it? Excalibur, I mean.
KHB: Excalibur, I don't think I've seen that one. Usually movies of Arthurian legends are pretty bad.
suncoast: I don't know but it's this beautiful atmosphereric moody music old movie from the 70's. It's beautifully filmed.
KHB: Hmmmm, I'll have to check that out.
BGE: I loved the movie of Mists of Avalon. I thought that Juliette Marguiles was perfect in the role of Morgaine!
KHB: Was that the mini series? I thought that was pretty good, too.
suncoast: So kids, what's next?
BGE: Before I forget, can I please, please, please choose the next book?
suncoast: DON'T ASK ME TO PICK!!!
KHB:
BGE: Three Cups of Tea...by Greg Mortenson. Check out the websites here: http://www.threecupsoftea.com/ To date, Greg has helped build 55 schools in remote villages of Pakistan and Afghanistan with the help of his non-profit, Central Asia Institute (www.ikat.org). Three Cups of Tea is an extraordinary story of one man’s efforts to make a change
suncoast: Is this the story of the guy who started schools for girls in Afganistan?
KHB: Wow, looks interesting.
BGE: I'm in the middle of it and it is a stunning read. Should I say that before you read it? Yes, that's the one. Greg was a climber, failed on a climb of K2 and got lost on the way down the mountain. A village rescued him and nursed him back to health… while recovering he observed the village’s 84 children sitting outdoors, scratching their lessons in the dirt with sticks. The village was so poor that it could not afford the $1-a-day salary to hire a teacher. When he left the village, he promised that he would return to build them a school. He realized how little they had and how much he had…….and you can take it from there!
suncoast: Sounds good. The author was here in Naples a couple of weeks ago. He spoke at the North Naples United Methodist Church.
KHB: I have to confess, though, that I could just not get into The Kite Runner. But, this looks completely different, I think. First off it's non-fiction.
suncoast: God Bless him.
BGE: This is just a sweet book about a guy who got it that the world he lives in is not the world that other people have access to. “Mortenson and award-winning journalist David Oliver Relin have written a spellbinding account of his incredible accomplishments in a region where Americans are feared and hated. In pursuit of his goal, Mortenson has survived an armed kidnapping, fatwas issued by enraged mullahs, repeated death threats, and wrenching separations from his wife and children. Yet his success speaks for itself. This year the schools will educate 24,000 children.” I’m cutting and pasting here...no, I don't type that fast!!!!
suncoast: Don't you wish he could bottle that epiphany and give it to us all.
KHB: He sounds amazing... I'm going to have to get this book
BGE: If you would like this book to be for next month, I'll go after arranging him to participate, if I can manage that. Something like with Bo Fuller and the Dogs
suncoast: The exact opposite of Elphaba. (LOL, had to put that in there.)
KHB: Ginger, you are too much!
suncoast:
BGE: There are so many good things here...check this out... http://www.ikat.org/projects.html his organization's website...bookmark it, please
suncoast: Yes that would be amazing. Okay kids, Trinket's trying to eat my keys. Gotta go. Love you guys
KHB: I am so glad I came to this book chat, and I'm glad that Ginger didn't like the book and Brenda was unsure. It made the chat so much more interesting!
KHB: Thanks for organizing, I have to go, too, but it has been fun!
BGE: So, ok with this for next month?
KHB: Yes, I think I'll have to come back next month!
BGE: Thanks for coming! See you next month!!!
KHB: Ciao!
author's name corrected
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Colleen,
Slow Travel Talk 
(But I really did hate that book.) Apologies to all of you.
