Just in case anyone noticed.... I haven't been around in that last 11 days because... I've been in both Montreal and Quebec City! (BTW, apologies for not using any diacritical marks - they're just too tedious on my keyboard - please know that I greatly value their use, but just can't be bothered at the moment!)
Anyway, we had a rather lively discussion here in the Spring of 2008 about Quebecois French and I am very happy to have had some more exposure to it. I really enjoyed comparing and contrasting vocabulary, accent, inflection, etc between Quebecois and European French.
I thought we might create a bit of a list of Quebecois terms and maybe trade some language-related stories.
Last year, we mentioned the Quebecois term "courriel" vs "email" as one example. There are a couple of others about which I'm not sure if they're used in France or not. What about "guichet" for ATM? (Disclosure: I haven't been in France in a while - is that used?) How about "buanderie?"
And what about "sou" for coin? I only associate that with novels and opera libretti that take place pre-1900. I always thought that "especes" or "monnaie" were more common in France. Perhaps this speaks to what Naomi B, last year, mentioned - that Quebecois is kind of closer to 17th/18th century French and perhaps terms like that just continued to be used....?
As far as pronunciation, beyond the differences in nasal sounds, I was very interested to hear some other variants of vowel sounds in Quebecois. For instance, many Quebecois seemed to use an "i" vowel (ee) that is closer to the "i" in the English "bit". Example: I was in a small town outside of Drummondville, in a fast food chain whose name I won't mention for fear of being teased (no, it wasn't McDonalds! ) and my total bill came to $9.90. I gave the kid who was waiting on me a 20 dollar bill and he gave me back a 10 and a dime, distinctly counting them out and saying, "dzuhs et dzuhs." I must say, I enjoyed hearing that so enunciated so clearly for my ever inquisitive and analytic ear!
Ordering breakfast in a café in Québec City, I discovered rôtie = round of toast miroir = sunnyside up.
The accent is very soft by comparison with rat-a-tat Parisian: I was completely flummoxed by what my brain could only transliterate as "carte chizy", but was meant to be "carte à credit".
Here is a fun fun fun lexicon. I do remember the word "char" for "car". "Char" in France means a tank - you know as in the battlefield. Imagine my surprise.
Thanks for that, AinP. What an excellent resource (even if it is Wikipedia )
That helps fill in some questions I had, like when the clerk in a store referred to "linge," she was talking about clothing, not specifically linen. And "bleuets" - we were eating blueberries a lot - got them in the markets, etc. And I'd always been confused how, in Italy, there was usually a gelato flavor market "mirtillo," which was alternately translated as bilberry and blueberry. That lexicon provides the explanation.
Great. Thanks.
{Edited to correct my own spelling!}
This message has been edited. Last edited by: David,
David, you are welcome. I take the same interest in linguistics as you… Besides the obvious difference in pronounciation of words, what strikes me about Canadian French is a very different inflection of the whole syntax. Often I keep looking at my Canadian interlocuteur questioningly, because this "rat-a-tat Parisian" (Patrick, I love you too, ) is not sure he has finished his sentence. Dialect evolutions are a fascinating topic. More more !
From the lexicon, it's interesting to compare some traditional locutions/translations compared with corresponding ones that are anglicized - in addition to courriel/email, we have: la fin de semaine (Québec) vs. le week-end (France) and traversier (Québec) vs. ferry (France). But voiture (France) vs. auto (Québec)!
I was going to try to draw a general conclusion that one group tends to anglicize more, but I'm not sure that that's possible - interesting....
Hi David, I would argue that there are more anglicisms in the French spoken in France than in Quebec. (As you note, the use of "le weekend" vs "la fin de semaine" or "un parking" vs "un stationnement.") An Acadian academic has a thesis about fragments of an old society in the new world being more inclined to hang on to the old ways and not evolving as quickly as the original society itself!
Here's a few more suggestions for Quebecois French vs continental French. Some are mine, some from friends who are Québecois(e).
In Québec, blonde refers to girlfriend, who is a copine in France; boyfriend in Québec is chum, or a copain in France.
In Québec, the word brassière means a bra, but in France it is a piece of clothing for babies Déjeuner in Québec is petit-déjeuner en France; dîner in French is déjeuner au Québec; et souper in Québec dîner is en France
Gosses in France means children and in Québec means testicles Bordel in France means whorehouse and in Québec means dissarray (this may not be so helpful!)
Gêner in France means embarrassment or to be put out and in Québec means shy Embarquer in France becomes monter dans une voiture/autobus in Québec; débarquer is descendre d'une voiture/autobus
Des bleuets in Québec refers to blueberries, which are called des myrtilles in France. In France, a parking lot is "un parking" and in Québec "un stationnement" In France, shoes are "chaussures" and more commonly in Québec, "souliers"
In France, cops are "des flics" and in Québec they are "polices" (instead of Il est policier they will say, though this is really slang, Y'est police)
Cheers, Sandra
{Edited to correct two minor typos}
This message has been edited. Last edited by: David,
Bordel in France means whorehouse and in Québec means disarray (this may not be so helpful!)
In France French "bordel" has both meanings: whorehouse and also a mess. It can also just be a meaningly expletive interjection, something to yell out.
quote:
Gêner in France means embarrassment or to be put out and in Québec means shy
In France French gêner has both meanings.
quote:
In France, a parking lot is "un parking" and in Québec "un stationnement"
In France French the word "stationnement" is as widely used, especially in official street signposts.
quote:
In France, shoes are "chaussures" and more commonly in Québec, "souliers"
Very interesting. (1) I hear both words used in France, chaussures more often. (2) As a consultant to a luxury store, I heard the management encourage salespersons to use the word "souliers" instead of "chaussures", because the former sounds old-fashioned and more enhanced.
quote:
In France, cops are "des flics" and in Québec they are "polices"
In France French, "police" is actually the correct word for police; "flics" is slang.
Am still laughing at "gosses". Btw, not being a native speaker, I can only report this second-hand champs sémantiques: I was told by a French friend that "gosses" again was not an enhanced word to say kids; better to say mômes. -- Must be one of those U-non-U distinctions in the French language. Again I don't have a gut feeling about one word or another, but my (perhaps snobbish?) friends do have strong opinions about these choices of words…
{{Spelling corrected at poster's request}}
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Amy,
Originally posted by sandrac: Hi David, I would argue that there are more anglicisms in the French spoken in France than in Quebec. (As you note, the use of "le weekend" vs "la fin de semaine" or "un parking" vs "un stationnement.") An Acadian academic has a thesis about fragments of an old society in the new world being more inclined to hang on to the old ways and not evolving as quickly as the original society itself!
I would guess the political differences would be responsible for some of this. The French in France don't feel themselves minorities so have less reason to avoid anglicisms.
Young people in France love to use anglicisms in slang. Somebody is "carrément too much" because he is "trop fashion", "trop bling", mais il est "top" quand même. One of Sarkozy's many nicknames, and a rather sortable nickname at that, is "président bling-bling".
Déjeuner in Québec is petit-déjeuner en France; dîner in French is déjeuner au Québec; et souper in Québec dîner is en France
Aha! Sandra, thanks for that. That explains my confusing phone conversation when making a reservation for lunch in Québec. I told the guy at the restaurant that I wanted to reserve a table for "déjeuner" at 1pm. He responded something like "mais Monsieur, on ne sert pas le déjeuner," and then proceeded to confirm the reservation. Flummoxed, I hung up, thinking, "I'm not sure whether we have a reservation or not..." In the end, I canceled it - we had OD'd on fine food and couldn't take another rich meal at that point. But thanks for the explanation.
quote:
Des bleuets in Québec refers to blueberries, which are called des myrtilles in France.
Hm - I wrote in a post above that the lexicon seemed to clarify for me that. Now I'm not so sure. Here's the bit about bleuets from the lexicon:
Blueberries, abundant in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, are called bleuets; in France, they are lumped together with myrtilles (bilberries) and bleuet means cornflower. (Bleuet is also slang for someone from Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean.) Though it should be noted that while very similar, these are not the same plants (i.e. myrtilles are Vaccinium myrtillus and bleuets are Vaccinium angustifolium).
My question harkened back to ordering "mirtillo" gelato in Italy and seeing mirtillo translated as "bilberry," and nothing listed for "blueberry." It sounds like they are similar. But when you get blueberries in France (or Italy?), do they just use the word "myrtille"?
quote:
I would guess the political differences would be responsible for some of this. The French in France don't feel themselves minorities so have less reason to avoid anglicisms.
Nick, I don't quite follow your reasoning. Could you elaborate? Thanks.
a linguistic minority. In the middle of an English sea.
The whole world feels that way !
One tragic-comic moment: A "flic" in France lamented on TV that when he made an arrest these days, - esp if the perp were a youngster, - too often he was asked: "Comment? you aren't going to read me my rights?" Of course the Miranda law is a US law, not a French law. But some young people in France watch so many US-imported cop shows that they are more familiar with US law than with French law. Pathetic, no?
I'm pretty sure that a package of blueberries bought right here in NJ will say "bleuets" as well. (Or maybe it's only when they are Maine blueberries, not sure.)
Americana, I love that nickname for Sarkozy, "president bling-bling!"
David, that's a shame about your déjeuner reservation -- but it sounds like it worked out for the best!
And your quote is correct about people in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region of Quebec referring to themselves as "bleuets" because of all of the wild blueberries that grow in their region (which is about 2-3 hours' drive north of Quebec City.)
The bleuberries are a result of an enormous fire in 1870 (I think that's the date!) that created the perfect growing conditions for the fruit.
I've done French immersion classes in the Saguenay, which is incredibly beautiful, and residents of the region are very proud of their heritage.
Nick, I agree -- as I'm sure you know, the province of Quebec has put enormous effort into preserving the French language, in an enormous Anglo sea!
I'm pretty sure that a package of blueberries bought right here in NJ will say "bleuets" as well. (Or maybe it's only when they are Maine blueberries, not sure.)
You're right, Marian. In fact, we saw some blueberries in Quebec that came from Hammondsville, New Jersey - the same ones we get in our market in NY! (There were local Quebecois blueberries as well.) Evidently, the New Jersey firms market them for Canada as well as for the US.
And AinP and Doru, the reason I keep harping on bleuets vs. myrtilles is that, like I said, dictionaries translate myrtille as "bilberry." Now I see that, although bilberries and blueberries are closely related, they're not exactly the same thing. So I guess the myrtilles one gets in Europe, if they're not imported from North America, are slightly different from what I buy at the grocery store. Or at least according to the Wikipedia bilberry page, they are....
End of digression.
Thanks for the explanation, Nick. It's an interesting theory.
And Sandra, that's fascinating about the 1870 fire. Thanks.
Just to get to 2 questions asked in the original post.
We Quebecers use "guichet" or "guichet automatique" and the French use "distributeur" or "distributeur de billets". Our "guichet" is almost a literal translation of the English word (that is now known as ATM). A "buanderie" is a "launderette" in France while a "nettoyeur" (literal translation of Dry cleaner) is a "Pressing" in France. We still use the word "sou" for coins and that comes mainly from our grand-parents giving us coins when we were kids (and they got that word from their own grand-parents probably). Old French word. We still use old French words not used anymore in France as we have stayed close to the the French that was spoken here at the time of the British invasion of our country. Catholic religion kept us as a linguistic entity and a Nation and we still are (but less Catholic...). If you want some more translation just ask for them as I am French speaking (speaking our own Québécois) but a frequent traveler to France.
Re courriel: I have seen French bizmen use "mel" for email. So there's tel, cel and mel. I quite like it as I like all things short.
Re "sou": When I first came to France I learned this tongue-twister: "c'est six sous ces six saucissons là; si c'est six sous ces six saucissons là, c'est pas cher."Now say it fast.
Il était une fois, Dans la ville de Foix, Une marchande de foie, Qui vendait du foie... Elle se dit : Ma foi, C'est la première fois Et la dernière fois, Que je vends du foie, Dans la ville de Foix.
This is more of a "comptine" - nursery rhyme - than a tongue-twister. Does not twist our tongue enough.
I thought about that for "cel" but nixed it, thinking that most Europeans use the equivalent of the term "mobile" phone. Shows you how up to date I'm not!
Ah - a comptine. Thanks! I learned that from a 12-year old when I spent a summer at Fontainebleau 30 years ago! Even though it's not a tongue twister, for an anglophone, to learn to say that at breakneck speed was a bit of a thing....
) and my total bill came to $9.90. I gave the kid who was waiting on me a 20 dollar bill and he gave me back a 10 and a dime, distinctly counting them out and saying, "dzuhs et dzuhs." I must say, I enjoyed hearing that so enunciated so clearly for my ever inquisitive and analytic ear!
)
) is not sure he has finished his sentence.
