We’d like to improve our French pronunciation, particularly of vowels. Listening to RFI news has helped but also confused us. (RFI has been useful for vocabulary. We are now prepared to discuss any disaster, having learned the words tué, blessé, noyé, piège, cible, otages, krach...) But we’re hearing different pronunciations from different news readers. For example, the last syllable of matin is sometimes “an,” sometimes “on.” And the “i” in matin is not the same as in internet or interdit. Most of the vowel sounds in French are hard for us to produce and we have no one to practice with, so we’ve been trying to get our ears in by listening to the IPA vowels on phonetique.free.fr. Does anybody here have any suggestions? Thanks.
First, I would say that although pronunciation is vital to being understood, the stress is not necessarily on the individual sounds or even words as on the ability to communicate in simple and clear sentences.
The pronunciation of vowels and words differs widely within France, from region to region. The standard French may be considered that spoken in Paris, but there is wide variation even within Paris itself, depending on the origin of the speaker.
So what I suggest is to think sentences and phrases, rather than sounds and words. As long as you talk the middle road and try to get understood, you will be understood and people will appreciate your efforts.
For a "vanilla" way to start, other than the many CDs with French language lessons, I would recommend to use the foreign languages BBC guide. For French you can start from here. Walk through the menu. There also are useful and entertaining sound- and video-based segments. For sampling the interactive video and sound, start from here.
I agree that vowels vary wildly from region to region. I first learned French with a Parisian accent. Then my second teacher was Alsatian and took it upon herself to strike the Parisian pronunciation from me for five years. Finally, I was back with a Parisian who disparaged that I sounded like an Alsatian.
I also love the BBC site. In podcast land, I will pull up the French Ecole's beginner lessons when I want to brush up. I find the accent pretty "vanilla" like the BBC.
This is such an interesting topic. I have been taking every single French CD program out of our library for months now, in preparation for our upcoming trip to France in two weeks time. I actually am pleased with my accomplishment. On the negative side though, I doubt I will understand much that is said to me in French! I think I possibly should have spent more time listening rather than trying to pronounce!~
I would say the "in" in matin is the same as the one in internet or interdit... Maton is slang for a jailkeeper ! What you heard on RFI are maybe the effects of regional accents.
Yes, matin and interdit and Internet all share exactly the same nasal -in sound.
One of the complications of French is that sometimes -en sounds like -in (as in moyen, bien), and sometimes it sounds like -an (as in enfant, where the two vowels, en- and -an-, are the same). Also, remember that in most dialects in France -un- is pronounced the same as -in (the "un" in un verre is the same sound as the in- of inverser). Défunt and des fins sound exactly the same.
But there are some snooty Paris accents where there's a tendency to make -in sound more like -an ("vent" for vin) and to make -an sound like -on ("onfont" for enfant). There's a vowel shift in progress, in other words. Some speakers exaggerate it more than others.
The opposite vowel shift is noticeable in the French of Québec, where -an sounds like the French -in ("infint" for enfant) and -on sounds like the French -an ("vent" for vont).
The most important thing is to be aware of the different vowel sounds that exist in the language. I think there are 16 of them, which includes the nasal vowels. And to try to reproduce them and, especially, understand them. If you can understand what people are saying to you, you can usually make yourself understood even if your accent isn't perfect.
Try listening to French songs. Then you get a good idea of what rhymes with what and what the vowels sound like in their purest form -- the music of the language.
Originally posted by ckenb: But there are some snooty Paris accents where there's a tendency to make -in sound more like -an ("vent" for vin) and to make -an sound like -on ("onfont" for enfant). There's a vowel shift in progress, in other words. Some speakers exaggerate it more than others.
Hey watch it, yo Saint-Aignon homeboy !
Actually Ken is right on the € regarding the vowel shift, as he often is.
Besides working tué, blessé, noyé, piège, cible, otages, krach into your scintillating onversation, Chabichou (and welcome to ST!), it always helps to see lots of French movies. Even if you don't follow everything, it is a great way to get used to the sounds, and it is the first step to help you form those sounds and not feel as though your tongue were in a knot. As for reading... Once in a while I go to a neighborhood cinema bookstore, - in passage Jouffroy here in the 9th, - and pick up a script on a movie that is a friend's favorite, and I send it to the friend to encourage him/her to learn French that way - watching the tape and reading the script at the same time. By the way, the movie book-poster store is a great place to visit in Paris. It is smack in the middle of one of those beautiful 19th century passages couverts: 49 - 53 passage Jouffroy. Below is the website - en Français, pardon, - of the bookstore. I think you can place orders. http://www.cine-doc.fr/ Maybe there are also university bookstores outside France that sell these scripts.
Thanks for the many helpful suggestions. I figured there was some kind of vowel shift going on, because everybody seems to agree on internet (an-ternet), a fairly new word, but older words are all over the map, a map with landmarks different from my American English one. I've heard an-ternet, ahn-terdit, ma-ton, Ville-pon. Indre tripped me up--not And', but Ond'. Same with Inde.
Ken, the comment on "un" was extremely helpful. For some reason, that's one of the hardest sounds for me to remember and produce. I'm always so grateful for a feminine noun that calls for "une."
Once we get high-speed internet I'll be able to access the BBC sites. I expect good things of the BBC.
Any suggestions for French vocal music online? I always seem to come across rap/hiphop stations, too quick and slangy for me to follow, and not the most helpful vocabulary.
Wouldn't turning on the French subtitles achieve the same thing, Americana? Most DVDs of French films, at least the ones you get in this country, allow you to set the subtitles to French. I wish I'd thought of this years ago, because I've only recently discovered how much it's helped me improve my listening comprehension (from nonexistent to not quite nonexistent).
When I think of the hundreds of French movies I've watched with the English subtitles on while hoping to soak up some french, it makes me want to weep.
I wondered if some sort of French lessons with a teacher/tutor instead of self-study might be helpful for you-- even if just a couple of sessions. Sometimes it really does help to have someone listen to you and correct you. We often can't hear the nuances in our own speech.
Our city has a little company that runs a language school where native speakers teach small group and private lessons. Or if you have a university with a foreign language program and many foreign students, you could even try to hook up with a graduate student or native French speaker for some casual discussion, probabably for a very low fee.
I agree with the other suggestions made here, but some people learn in different ways. I have found that personal involvement with a teacher has been helpful-- though I have a long, long way to go!
But I'm talking about subtitles in French too. I know the script would contain other information in addition to the dialog, but why wouldn't the dialog be the same?
I wouldn't get hung up on the "vowel shift" issue. What Chabichou is describing sounds to me like an over-exaggerated attempt at "posh", rather the way some very upper crust people in the UK tended for a time to pronounce "house" as "hice" (and I think that's tended to decline a bit).
What might be useful is to record yourself trying test sentences from some appropriate instructional recording, and compare the two - it's amazing how different one sounds on a recording from inside one's own head.
Originally posted by Chris: I know the script would contain other information in addition to the dialog, but why wouldn't the dialog be the same?
Because it would depend totally on the skill of the translator. Some subtitles are well done, not all. Example: a documentary on an American jazz musician. The dialogue was in English. X complimented Y's multicolored trousers and said: "you m-----f----- !" (We English-speakers all know how that term can be used as a compliment.) The sutbitle was "tu t'embêtes pas, toi" which means something like "you get around, don't you?". Imagine a Frenchman who learns English that way, and the next time he wants to say that somebody "gets around", he comes out with "you m-----f-----" !
I still think we're talking about different things.
I'm talking about a movie where the dialog is in French and the subtitles are in French too. DVDs commonly offer this now. I know subtitles are sometimes not that good, but I don't see how any translation would be involved here at all.
My reading comprehension is so much better than my hearing that I think this would help. It's like closed captioning in French.
Originally posted by Chris: I'm talking about a movie where the dialog is in French and the subtitles are in French too. DVDs commonly offer this now. I know subtitles are sometimes not that good, but I don't see how any translation would be involved here at all.
Now I get it ! I am so DVD-backward I didn't even know this DVD feature and I had this arrested idea that all subtitles were translated dialog. Yes that would be a great way of learning French, especially seeing all the little space-filling phrases like "mais voyons" and "c'est dire" and "ça alors" and "et puis quoi encore" that go by so fast and so non-enunciated that they are hard to catch, yet are so important as "atmospheric" comments. And so often they are not phrases that find their way into a text book.
PatrickLondon, we are talking about the same thing. "Vowel shift" is just a fancy name for the phenomenon you are describing. It exists in France, or in Paris, and it can be confusing until you figure out what is going on.
I still say popular songs are the way to really hear the vowels, the rhymes, the pronunciation overall. But recommending songs comes down to a matter of taste. Here goes: anything by Michel Berger, sung by him or by France Gall, for example. Also Jacques Brel, pourquoi pas? Some singers, I'm thinking of Francis Cabrel, have regional accents, but still... Or what about Laurent Voulzy? Another idea: Carla Bruni(-Sarkozy). Or Jeanne Moreau, Edit Piaf, and on and on.
It helps to have the words when you listen to the songs. Lyrics are at paroles.net.
Try listening to Chante France radio "en direct" over the Internet. It plays French music exclusively. I can't post a link because Firefox hiccups when I try to open the radio site and SlowTalk at the same time.
By the way, the French have always said that the language spoken in the Loire Valley is the "purest" French. So travel to the Loire Valley to get your bearings.
Thanks for that lyrics link, Ken! I've been listening and studying the lyrics on some French songs, but it's nice to find a site with so many lyrics in one place.
And the Slowtalk/Chante France hiccup probably explains why I've never been able to get the site to come up, since I almost always have Slowtalk open.
Chris, do you use Firefox? I do, and it turns out I can't get Chante France to work at all in Firefox, whether or not I have Slow Travel running. It works fine with Internet Explorer, however. I think the Chante France site requires ActiveX from Microsoft to play the radio live, and Firefox doesn't support ActiveX. Try IE to see if it works for you.
I find this topic very interesting! My boyfriend who is Spanish also used to have some difficulties to pronounce well but I was here to correct him even if I admit that I wasn't at all a very good teacher!!! By the way, he decided to take lessons with Nacel, a company specialized and he stayed in Rouen, in the North of France for 4 weeks. He told me that they worked a lot on the pronunciation, but also the vocabulary and expression. I was impressed and even if I didn't experience it by myself I can recommend it. I checked and I think that this was the program
