Last night we watched a French movie set in the late 19th century ("Gabrielle"). I noticed that the husband and wife used "vous" with each other, rather than "tu" as I would expect. I was just curious as to whether anyone might know if this was a common usage in that time, or whether it might be intended to say something about their relationship, which was certainly quite complicated. A very powerful and intense movie, by the way.

- Roz

Good observation.
Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir also used vous with each other all their life.
It is not common within couples, but not unheard of either, among older, old-school couples.

I remember a couple of funny threads on the tu-vous issue, such as Sarko using "tu" at the White House. See here

The issue of tutoiement also came up here . (Search "tutoiement")

I think of it as those Jane Austen novels in which the married couples refer to (and address) each other as "Mr" and "Mrs"....

Thanks ... I thought it probably wasn't unheard of, but I also think the choice was meant to say something about the distance in their relationship. The movie, by the way, was based on a short story by Joseph Conrad. I suppose it has been translated into French, so possibly that is the usage from the French version of the story too. The title of the story in English is "The Return."

- Roz

I think it was quite common at the time, weird and unfamiliar but often used between people who knew each other very well, presumably.

It would also have been a class thing, I have the impression: the further up the social scale, the more likely the use of "vous" between husband and wife - who would have been more aware of the idea of marriage as an alliance of families and their interests, perhaps.

In a French documentary about, ahem, the serial killer Heaulme was asked why he had confessed to all kinds of crimes he had not committed.
Heaulme: "the inspector tutoyé'd me."
According to the police's analyses, (Heaulme is not the world's greatest explainer) this means Heaulme thought the inspector had shown trust and frinendliness, which made him want to say things to please him.
As I said in another thread, I never have the natural hang about when to say Vous or tu, and when to switch, even after all these years of living in France. I still monkey see monkey do.
And I never cease to be amazed by the subtleties (first wrote subtitles, which would have worked too) reflected in this distinction - subtleties in culture, anthropology, power, sense of personal space. What Heaulme said was the latest eye-opener on tutoiement.

The word "tutoiement," obviously from "tu" + "toi," makes sense, but why is "vouvoiement" callled that?

The verbs are actually tutoyer and vouvoyer.

I know that, but my question is why is "vouvoyer" called that-- just to rhyme with "tutoyer"? "Toi" is a word but "voi" isn't.

Fifi:

I'm not an etymologist and I very well might be wrong, but I'd venture to guess that only the "tu" and "vous" parts of "tutoyer" and "vouvoyer" are the only really operative ones. The second syllables don't really relate to the _meaning_ of the word - and you're construing that they do - i.e. the syllable "toy" in "tutoyer" doesn't really refer to "toi." Rather, it's just part of a vocalic/harmonic pattern. There might be examples of other words that further demonstrate this pattern.

Anyone else?

quote:

The word "tutoiement," obviously from "tu" + "toi," makes sense

Pas si obvious que ça…
As our inhouse linguist David guessed correctly, the "-oyer" and "-oiement" are suffixes to make a verb and noun out of the "tu". An example of another set of words following this pattern would be aboyer and aboiement; there must be tons more. In other words, the "toie" or "voie" has no more meaning there than "mist" in the word "mistake".

Thanks, AinP and I particularly like the "mist"/"mistake" analogy!

Mlle Fifi, does that make sense? If not, let us know.

According to Wiktionary (http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/tutoyer), you are right-- "Étymologie:
Formé à l'aide du pronom tu, du suffixe -oyer et d'un « t » intercalaire."

Mediadico.com, however, says "ÉTYMOLOGIE Tu et toi".

There's an interesting discussion on this site-- http://forum.wordreference.com...thread.php?t=1092580 where a native French speaker thought the same thing I did: « C'est surtout que dans "tutoyer", on peut entendre "tu" et "toi".
Alors que dans "vouvoyer", on entend "vous" et "voi", mais "voi" ne veut rien dire... »

That's very interesting. Thanks. If that is the case, in terms of an explanation, the only thing I can think of is that, perhaps, the "voi" part might be an old French version for second person plural "you", just like "Voi" is in modern Italian?

Moving here from a closed topic this post by Ken Bou:

Ken Bou Posted 27 April 2009 11:31 AM
New Member

Hi Roz,

Yes, respect is the key in happy relationship!

When I was young I attended French's school.
I still rememered well my French teachers coversation. They always refered to each others as "vous" never "tu"

Therefore, I know if they said "tu" to someone that means that person is younger or less respectful.
As for couple respect each other is the best part of their relationship.

Ken Bou

http://www.laos-travel-guide.com

Several Asian languages do have two ways of addressing the second person, but it is not an equivalent system to the French tu-vous.
The French tu-vous distinction is not based solely on aspects of age and respect.
When the French switch from vous to tu, it does not mean the speaker loses respect for his interlocutor, or that one side suddenly ages or becomes younger ( ). By switching to tu, both sides are acknowledging a narrowing of distance.
(Wonder if the German du-Sie distinction has this factor as well.)

My understanding is that the German practice is based on exactly the same principle (and to confuse the issue a little more, there's an informal/personal plural "you" as well as the formal one for both individuals and plurals - as indeed in Dutch, though there I get the impression the informal form is much more common and the formal pretty well only in official sorts of communication).

And I seem to remember that in the classical German literature up to the late 18th century, it was not unknown for what is now the plural informal "you" to be used to a singular person of a decidedly menial class. Wouldn't get many opportunities to come across that nowadays, though....

Hi Doru,

Sorry I didn't mean to open new
discussion topic. I just made a
mistake by clicking on new discussion
icon and posted.

Very sorry

Last night on one of the French TV channels (2) there was an unsightly political dog fight.

A few days ago President Obama said that he did not like to watch cable TV political debates (even about him) because it was like watching wrestling, where each side played a part and the outcome was predictable, etc.

Well last night at one point it was a 6-way wrestling match, with so much mud slinging that vieweres feel like taking a bath afterwards.

But I did not mean to bore you with what the entire French political spectrum unanimously condemned as lamentable.

I am writing about tu and vous. Can you believe it?

At one point one political candidate, Bayrou, - o these guys are facing Euro election this Sunday - accused another, the ex boy wonder of May 68 and current co-prez of the Greens of Europarliament, Daniel Cohn-Bendit, of being so chummy with Sarko that they were on tutoiement basis.

Besides slinging back mud, "Dany" made a point of tutoy-ing Bayrou, mostly to show his contempt.

And Bayrou made a point of vousvoy-ing him back, to show HIS contempt.
and slung some mega mud.

If you want to watch tu-vous distinction as weapon, and have enough French and can stand watching half a dozen people insulting each other at the same time, you can easily look it in on French sites by googling the major culprits' names.

The entire France seems absorbed in some kind of horror fascination…

Edited at request of poster

This message has been edited. Last edited by: David,

"Last night we watched a French movie set in the late 19th century ("Gabrielle"). I noticed that the husband and wife used "vous" with each other, rather than "tu" as I would expect."

Yes, the "Vous" was custmom in the old days. As a matter of fact the "tu" was mostly a disrespect full way to address people, such as for emphasis the fact the person talked to was from a lower class, servant or slave.