I am looking for an intensive French language school in Montreal or Quebec. I would like a school that provides 2-4 weeks of class and preferably a full 8 hour day. Also, it would be good if it provided some type of student housing either with family stays or help with apartments. There are several schools like this in France but I'm having a bit of difficulty locating one in Canada.

Thanks

Marta -

My very positive assessment of your fortitude and bravery have been confirmed ! Good luck with that crazy accent !!

-Kevin

Marta, here is one possibility in Montreal. It is offered through the language school broker-- A2Z Languages-- that I've worked with on my program in Aix. He is US-based and represents several different language schools. It looks like this particular school offers homestays.

I've found A2Z Languages very good to work with-- I had a long talk with him by phone when I was considering the IS School in Aix and he put me in contact with some former students. I've also liked paying in fixed US dollars and being able to easily charge to my credit card.

(You could always come to Aix with me in July...)

Kathy

quote:

(You could always come to Aix with me in July...)

How I wish but not this year.

Thanks for the link Kaydee. The school looks good and is what I am looking for. Kevin, Yes, I'm going to have to be careful and not pick up a 'country' accent.

Just keep in mind that the difference between Québécois and continental French is more than a difference of accents.

There are some who argue that it is a different language (defining language vs. dialect is always a slippery slope).

Marta, I think it is great that you're going to continue with your French studies.

I am just curious why you've decided to study this time in Canada though. Is it the cost of going to Europe?

I don't know anything really about the differences between French in France and French in Canada. (But last year in my language school, I learned more about German in Germany vs. German in Switzerland since I had both Swiss and Germans in my class.)

Kathy

Good question, Kathy. I also don't know that much about the specific differences either, but I think Naomi's response is appropriate.

It's pretty different from German vs. Swiss German, though. From what I understand (and have experienced) Swiss German can be quite unintelligible to normal German speakers. Whereas French people coming to Quebec have much, much less problem.

When I watch Canadian French documentaries on French-French tv, sometimes I have to read the subtitles. No kidding.
There seems to be a great deal of difference - in pronunciation, in the inflection of a sentence, even in vocabulary. But it also seems to vary depending on the speakers. Some speakers seem more understandable than others.

quote:

I am just curious why you've decided to study this time in Canada though. Is it the cost of going to Europe?

Yes, that is part of it. I know, when you look at the costs, it may not be that much more but psychologically the euro exchange rate really bothers me. I want to explore the different options. I appreciate everyones points regarding the language differences. I will definitely keep that in mind.

But I am also interested in visiting Montreal and Quebec. I have never been to that area or New England so that also appeals to me.

I am really struggling to speak. I need something that will continue to press me to try. I am continuing at Alliance Francais but I can see I've gotten into a very bad habit of not trying. I even just blank and freeze. It is terrible and I don't know what do to break this habit. Maybe the next step is private lessons? I'm going to need a really patient teacher.

quote:

Originally posted by David:
Good question, Kathy. I also don't know that much about the specific differences either, but I think Naomi's response is appropriate.

It's pretty different from German vs. Swiss German, though. From what I understand (and have experienced) Swiss German can be quite unintelligible to normal German speakers. Whereas French people coming to Quebec have much, much less problem.

That might be somewhat true in Montreal or when communicating with more educated Québécois, but is not necessarily true of the language spoken on the street (just as in Switzerland an academic would be able to speak Hoch Deutsch, albeit with a Swiss accent).

Actually, David, as a Swiss-Canadian (first-generation Canadian, parents Swiss and German), I would say that one could very legitimately compare the differences between Swiss German vs. High German and Québécois vs. French, right down to the historical reasons for the differences. Quebec French is in some ways more similar to the French spoken in France during the 17th and 18th centuries, both in the sense of terminology and the accent too, apparently. It has then evolved within a North American English setting and even contains some adapted native American words.

As someone mentioned above, Quebec documentaries aired in Europe include French subtitles. None of my Swiss relatives--all of whom are fluent in continental French--can understand more than a smattering of Québécois as spoken on the streets (though they could listen to a Radio-Canada news broadcast or something similar without much difficulty). And when they try to speak their French here, the locals often just switch to English (i.e., don't believe these people speak French and/or can't understand the French that's being spoken to them).

In the other direction, those among my Québécois friends who can't tone down their dialect have told me that not only can they barely communicate when visiting France, they have difficulty understanding what's being said to them as well.

There are, within Quebec, different regions where it is either more or less difficult for a Euro-French-speaking person to understand the dialect, just as in Switzerland there are some Swiss dialects that are much more difficult to decipher than others, as a German-speaking person.

Hmm. Maybe I could have expressed all that more clearly. Hope I'm making sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Marta:
I am really struggling to speak. I need something that will continue to press me to try. I am continuing at Alliance Francais but I can see I've gotten into a very bad habit of not trying. I even just blank and freeze. It is terrible and I don't know what do to break this habit. Maybe the next step is private lessons? I'm going to need a really patient teacher.

Marta,
It sounds as though your real problem is that you have reached the very tedious and frustrating intermediate-advanced stage of a language apprenticeship.
A beginner - especially a smart and diligent one - progresses fast and steadily. The progress reaches a plateau after a while, despite one's effort. That is natural. It happens in every language-learning process.
The next progress will be more a leap and less a steady march. it is when suddenly you realize your comprehension is "getting there", that you get what people are saying, and you respond easily.
Then from that "leap" to the next "leap" of progress, there is another two years, about, if you live in the country: the jokes! you get the jokes, and not 10 minutes later! Not onlyi you get them but you respond in jokes simultaneously. You will have arrived.
Meanwhile, remember it's not you, it's part of the process. Think more about doing less boring forms of exercise to help you keep going.
One way is to watch those French classic or nouvelle vague movies in French with French subtitles. Roz said that some DVDs are so equipped.
Another way is to turn on a French tv or radio program when you are doing a daily mindless routine, like cooking or doing exercise, just to have French sounds in the background and get used to them.
Another way, - my dad imposed this on me when I first settled in the States and was struggling with English - is to download a piece of French news article everday, an article that interests you, then read it out loud and look up the vocab that escapes you.
Hang in there.

Marta -

Given your last comment, I'd say in all sincerity that language school in Quebec would be a bad idea. As Americana says, it seems like you are at that stage now where you've got the basics down and need to make a leap in conversation.

Ideally, the best way to do this would be one-on-one lessons. Find a native French speaker with whom you can work intensively for perhaps two 2-hr sessions a week. Then supplement this with movies, listening to French radio, even music/opera.

Taking more group lessons (especially in Quebec, where it will be a major change linguistically) risks frustrating you even more.

Nothing wrong with a vacation there, however. and as a former New Englander, you can do worse than a few weeks for the fall foliage with some hiking/walking thrown in...

-Kevin

Naomi, oops, I guess I was wrong about that. Thanks very much. Hm.... you know, my comments were more from my personal perspective than from one of really knowing the differences from having, say, lived in Switzerland or Quebec. What you add is very interesting.

I get around quite well in French, German, Italian and Spanish, but I'm far from fluent in any of them. In 1991, I spent a few months shuttling between Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Despite dialect differences between various parts of Germany, and particularly Austria, I did pretty well. But when I went to Switzerland, I couldn't understand a word. Swiss German seemed to be so far away from Hochdeutsch. It struck me that the difference between Hochdeutsch and Swiss German was akin to the difference between German and Dutch. I wonder if that's an apt comparison? Again, this is just how it appeared to me - that Swiss German was so radically different from German German.

OTOH, I've had limited experience speaking French with Quebecois. I've been able to communicate with someone from Quebec just about as well as I have with people in France. Now I'm sure that the big difference is that, yes, I've mostly been dealing with people who are in either big cities, or who are very aware that I'm American and are doing their best to speak clearly when they're with me and to limit their regionalisms.

Here's another curious factor - my French is better than my German, so you would think that I'd be more sensitive to variations in French. But maybe I'm not as sensitive as I might think? I'd be interested to spend more time in all of the above places to be able to get, first hand, what you're describing. Thanks again.

But, back to Marta... Marta, it would be pretty interesting for you to study in Quebec or Montreal, I'd think. I'd assume that any program would be teaching you mostly standard French, but that you'd encounter more dialect when you left the school environment, after class. Interesting....

I agree with David. I taught translation (English to French) at the university level in Montreal. I'm a native Quebecer and speak standard French. Any language school in Montreal will teach standard French.

[Long post alert: Sorry all!]

I realize now that I may not have been clear enough when I was talking about French in Quebec. The language school will certainly be teaching standard French, albeit maybe with a more Quebec than continental accent, and likely offering some local communication/vocabulary tips as well.

I only meant that it can be hard for those who've grown up learning a different French to communicate on the street level, if speaking with less-educated Quebecers (just as in Switzerland, it would generally be harder to communicate with, say, a farmer or a waitress in a small town than a Swiss who's acquired a more advanced level of schooling.)

Québécois, like Swiss German, is not really a written language, so anyone with a certain level of education, or raised in a more white-collar household (these terms are a bit political, so I hestitate to use them, but I hope you understand what I mean) is likely to speak a more universal French, though with a local accent and some differences in phrasing choices, etc. And when speaking to someone not from Quebec, such a person is not going to break into a broad local dialect, even if they might do so when speaking to a local.

And let me be clear that I'm not saying one type of French is more legitimate than another. All of these languages have rich historical and cultural roots and it shouldn't be about pooh-poohing one language in favour of another (which is unfortunately a big issue with different French dialects).

I'm talking about practicalities. I live in a rural Quebec town, and I have *a lot* of difficulties communicating with the less-educated members of the local community (that's the majority, here). Yet I have travelled throughout French-speaking Europe with little difficulty in either communicating or understanding.

My husband, who's an anglo Quebecer who learnt his French on the streets here, has few problems, even though his grammar is terrible. He understands and can duplicate the accents, the expressions, the vernacular, etc. I often can't.

***

David, regarding Swiss German, I guess I see what you're saying. I'm wondering if you were spending most of your time in cities or in the country? I find that in cities, people will usually switch to High German (with a strong Swiss accent) when they see that you're struggling, but maybe that's not true anymore. Personally I can only understand some Swiss German dialects (Berne, Zurich, Basel). Some of the Swiss dialects are just mind-boggling.

I find it interesting that you didn't have any troubles in Austria, though perhaps it depends on the region there as well. I've heard some really interesting local dialects in Austria. Some I found quite similar to certain Swiss dialects (my father would probably disagree with me, but as a Swiss, he's not so objective... )

I too was not saying that Pairisian French was superior French, or that Canadian French wasn't.
(Actually people say Loire French is standard French. N'est-ce pas, Ken? )

Naomi,

I think that we all understand that you had no intention of elevating any type of French over any other. Your remarks continue to be very well thought out and informative, so thanks!

Actually, most of my experience with Swiss German was just hearing it in passing. When I spoke to people (you're right -- mostly in cities), I would just initiate the conversation in High German and they would respond in kind. But I vividly remember being on a train, trying to eavesdrop on the conversation between two businessmen and I literally could not understand a single word. I think that was my first exposure Swiss German. After that, my listening experiences seemed to confirm that it felt like it was a completely different language than German.

In Austria, I spent the majority of my time in Vienna. Again, my conversations were relatively straightforward ones with colleagues, merchants, travel and lodging employees, etc. Although I know that there are so many differences between Austrian German and High German, the difference in accent and pronunciation is what I found most striking when dealing in these situations. And I could almost always understand vocabulary, despite accent.

This has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion. It has given me a lot to think about. I do listen a bit to French radio and podcasts but I haven't yet signed up for TV5. I need to do this more regularly. Everyones comments will give me a push.

I really appreciate everyone feedback and comments on the difference.

I am an English-Canadian and I speak/read/write French fluently. Here is my experience. I hold a Master's degree in Applied Linguistics from the Sorbonne. I lived in Paris for 3 years while doing these studies. I have been back many, many times since then. I have a very good sense of the French language spoken in the 'motherland' (!)
I have lived in Quebec for 33 years now; I am retired but I worked for over 30 years in a French textbook publishing company. My interactions orally and in writing were exclusively in French.
And finally, by way of establishing credentials, I was trained as a language teacher having taught French at the secondary school and university levels as well as English as a second language at the university level. I am a co-author of numerous textbooks for ESL teaching.
Now down to business about the 'Quebec language' problem. Most of the people who posted simply write in ignorance. There is not a country in this world that does not have variants of standard language. I spend part of the winter in southern US and often strain to really 'get' what people are saying. Likewise, in parts of England. Likewise in the south of France. Likewise in parts of Quebec.
This is a normal phenomenon and it is up to me to use strategies to deal with these variants IF I choose to interact with these people...and not simply to throw up my arms and declare that 'I can't understand a thing'..je ne comprends rien
As for Quebec French, let me assure you that people here with a minimum of education, not to mention those with a maximum of same, speak a totally comprehensible language. The language has evolved far ,far from that 17th/18th variation that some (ignorant) people continue to evoke to a modern, vibrant one that has found ways to incorporate lexical items that even France has not done due to what? laziness? snobbery? By way of example, the word for 'email' continues to be 'email' in France while here, we use 'couriel' ..a perfect, perfect rendition of the term. There are many examples of this same effort to find appropriate French words for new terms and concepts.
It's high time to end this mythological opinion that Quebec French is inferior and that to study French here is not a desirable thing.
So, Marta, here is a school of the highest standing for you to consider: http://www.uwo.ca/cstudies/tp/
I am confident that you will find living and studying in Quebec a very positive experience.

Charlotte:

Welcome to SlowTrav and thanks for your post. I appreciate your comments and feel that your basic points are well taken.

However, I looked back thru the thread and, frankly, I don't find anyone direct statement to the effect that Quebecois French is inferior to that spoken anywhere else. I understand that this is a sensitive issue, and rightfully so, but I don't see any evidence of the attitude you describe being supported right here.

I hope that you'll have a look at our rules for posting and continue to participate in the SlowTrav community.

Charlotte,

Welcome to slowtrav and thanks for a very informative post. I confess to complete ignorance about what kind of French would be taught in a language school in Quebec.

I just assumed (wrongly !!) that at a language school in Quebec, French would be taught by native Quebecois professors speaking with the accent of the country and using terms and expressions that as you point out, are not always the same as in France. I stand humbly corrected and frankly suprised to learn that the French taught in Quebec is in fact "international" French and not the Quebecois variety.

By the way, I would just stress and follow on from David to say that in no way am I insinuating that one variety of French is any better or worse than another.

I still say, however, that for someone who is struggling to learn a foreign language, it's not ideal to switch in mid-stream from one conversational environment to another very different one. Even if the classes in the school itself are conducted in "international" French, there is still the question of what one hears outside of the school - with the host family, for example, or in daily contact with locals.

Imagine a French person who has done a number of weeks of immersion classes in London and is at that stage we all hit in learning another language where you need to make a conversational leap in understanding. Would you recommend they go to Sydney or Auckland to take the next step forward ? Or might they end up frustrated when faced with a radically different accent ? This was my thinking when I advised Marta not to go to Montreal for continued studies.


-Kevin

I also failed to find any poster who said Québecois French was inferior. Charlotte must have been referring to another thread.
My Canadian friends and my friends from French provinces tease me about my Parisian accent too. It did not occur to me to imagine that they were saying my accent was inferior. We just laugh together.
Accents can be light, posing no problem of understanding, or they can be pronounced enough to affect one's effort of attention.
Another language that where accent can vary so widely as to make or break is Chinese. One of the most famous speeches in its history - of Mao proclaiming the republic on Tiananmen square - is in an incomprehensible Hunanese accent. I mean incomprehensible. A thick enough accent defeats comprehension. I am surprised that a person who studied linguistics and language apprenticeship - as I did - considers a failure to understand thick accents as laziness, snobbery, ignorance, etc.
Lastly, Charlotte proves my point with the example of the specifically Canadian French word "couriel", which showed that Canadian French and French French can be very different, not just in accent but also in vocabulary. I don't mind at all that Charlotte's description of a "perfect, perfect rendition" make it sound downright superior.

quote:

I am really struggling to speak. I need something that will continue to press me to try.

I saw this distance learning site, My Personal Language Tutor mentioned elsewhere, and would love to hear first hand experiences. It sounds like a great idea, but I don't know anyone who has used it. You get one-on-one tutoring via Skype.

I always find the difference between the same language spoken in different parts of the world fascinating. I believe we could have had the same discussion about the Spanish spoken in South America versus Spain, and the English spoken in North America versus the United Kingdom (and in fact we have a thread on that very topic!)

My son learned his French in Ontario in immersion from Quebecois, French and Belgian teachers (all Canadians of course), studied it in England (from a French person) and spoke it in France. No problems. Similarly, my daugher learned Spanish here in Ontario, but practiced with her friend who's originally from Columbia. When she left for Spain, he warned her about the differences in accent and vocabulary.

My one suggestion about Quebec would be to go a small town. I believe there is a two week immersion course available in Trois Rivieres. I'm making this suggestion because in Montreal and even in Quebec, people will tend to switch to English if you struggling in French (they are doing this to be polite and because it's fairly natural to do so). If you go to a smaller community, you will be much more likely to speak French. I believe that the program also offers homestay with a family. If you are really interested, I will contact my friend to find out more details.

Correction from my bad typing "even in Quebec City", not Quebec.

I am personally offended by Naomi's repeated comments about those with less education having a specific accent and being difficult to understand. Obviously different people will have different accents but education has nothing to do with it. I've seen many highly educated professionals having the same accent as the cashier at the dollar store. I found her phrasing derogatory and elitist. It would be like saying Americans with a southern accent aren't as educated as those from the North. Just my honest opinion.