Americana in Parigi suggested that we split off and move the Shanghai information from previous China in April thread and we agree. There is a lot of valuable information that may be easier to find in a thread specific to Shanghai.
Posts: 7208 | Location: Edmonds, WA | Registered: 25 October 2001
I've just come back from a trip to China and had a fantastic time especially in Shanghai. If you want to be dining in an empty restaurant, book a table at 9pm. I live in Barcelona and found it very hard to adjust my day around the Chinese's eating times. 7-730pm is really the optimum time and book ahead as the restaurants especially in Shanghai get booked fast.
Posts: 47 | Location: Barcelona | Registered: 06 April 2007
Shanghai's my favorite large Chinese city too. The Yangtze delta region is the Tuscany of China -- rich in culture and cuisine and steeped in history. Now with Shanghai becoming to a capitalist metropolis, the entire region has an added dimension of excitement and decadence.
I've just come back from a week trip in China and managed to visit both Shanghai and Beijing. To me, Shanghai was far more impressive, cleaner and easier to navigate. Only after visiting China do you realise what everyone is talking about.
Posts: 47 | Location: Barcelona | Registered: 06 April 2007
so hurray, I've had a free trip to China drop into my lap, but alas, it will only be for 4 nights in Shanghai and one (maaaaaybe 2) in HK. In 1987 I traveled to Beijing, Xian and HK, but this will be my 1st time in Shanghai. I have been fascinated by Chinese political history ever since that first trip, and am hoping to find at least a couple of peeople who would feel comfortable talking about same. Will be staying 3 nights at the Shangri-la Pudong, with a possible move to the Ritz Carlton for the 4th night. Planning to visit the Shanghai Museum, the French Concession, the Old City and hopefully a Yangtze river cruise. Otherwise, we just want to walk around and experience the city, and maybe work in a day trip to Hangzhou. Jane, in addition to the foot massage (which we plan to do on at least a daily basis), I want to check out the "Blind Massage School".....all the masseuses are blind and are renowned for having the most extraordinarily refined sense of touch.
Would greatly appreciate any 1st-hand restaurant recommendations....we are culinarily adventurous, and would prefer to immerse ourselves in the local food culture, although we might require a few hits of Starbucks just for fortification.
Thanks to all China hands,
Ring
Posts: 286 | Location: Gastonia NC, near Charlotte | Registered: 11 October 2005
Originally posted by RingNC: I have been fascinated by Chinese political history ever since that first trip, and am hoping to find at least a couple of peeople who would feel comfortable talking about same. Ring
The subject is fascinating indeed - and often tragic, as well as extremely sensitive. I don't mind engaging in this off the board. However I must remind you to remember not to do or say anything that could get a Chinese national into trouble. If a westerner - with the right kind of passport - says or does the wrong thing politically there, the worst that will happen to him is to be expelled. A Chinese national involved in the same conversation will be in much worse trouble. Please remember to bear in mind others' safety and not to consider their reticence as simple cowardice.
I do hope the mods let the above parag stand as it is about the safety of travellers and locals.
"Will be staying 3 nights at the Shangri-la Pudong, with a possible move to the Ritz Carlton for the 4th night."
Try to stay longer at the Ritz-Carlton if you can. It is excellently located in the middle of the old French concession, much better than Pudong which looks and feels like a wannabe HK to me. Every morning the old retirees bring their boom box and practise ballroom dancing right across the street from the hotel. A few feet away yet others are practising Taichi. Or old 40s revolutionary dances! Absolutely not to be missed. Ritz-Carlton has a couple of excellent restaurants also, serving MSG-free Cantonese cuisine!
O a strange thing about S'hai-HK. In HK it is chic to eat S'hai. In S'hai, it is chic to eat Cantonese. Go figure.
One local genre of cuisine which I love is S'hai vegetarian cuisine. I think the origin started with Chinese buddhists who must eat vegetarian - at least for a few designated days out of the month, yet they are too gourmands to give up the meat taste, so a cuisine genre was developed, producing mock meat dishes like mock goose, mock ham, etc. So hypocritical yet so epicurian too. The dishes are excellent and extremely refined. I used to like to go to Gong De Lin - 功德林 (you can print and show this to the taxi driver). But the S'hai scene changes so fast. Recently it has got mixed reviews... http://www.vegdining.com/GetRest.cfm?rk=CHI-SHAN-GONGD
"the French Concession, the Old City"
Try to get a hold of a map with the old French names like Rues Lafayette, Jouffroy, etc. They all have names like "Liberation Rd" now. When you read books about old S'hai - like the excellent and scary "Empire of the Sun" by JG Ballard, having a map with the old names really helps. An old map will also help you find old historical sites that are not necessarily mentioned officially these days, such as the old Roosevelt Hospital (now the number one hospital or number two hospital?) where a former country leader who later went on exile went there to get off opium cold turkey...
"and hopefully a Yangtze river cruise."
I am baffled too, like Steve. This is like a Mississipi cruise - in length and in time. Even Bill Gates who is not known for ST devoted a whole trip to this. It's not something you can squeeze in in the middle of the afternoon, you know.
"Otherwise, we just want to walk around and experience the city, and maybe work in a day trip to Hangzhou."
With so little time, just enjoy S'hai instead of wasting so much time on commuting between cities.
"the foot massage (which we plan to do on at least a daily basis), I want to check out the "Blind Massage School"
Both excellent ideas. Supposedly originally the masseurs (men) were "made" blind so that they could not see the ladies' body.
"Would greatly appreciate any 1st-hand restaurant recommendations....we are culinarily adventurous, and would prefer to immerse ourselves in the local food culture,"
Besides Gong De Lin, there is alwayas the old standby Mei Long Zhen - 梅龍鎮 http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2761556-mei_long_zhen_shanghai-i Ask for a cup of Ba Bao tea. The way it is served - with the waiter pouring from across the room to your cup - is performing art. The theory is that it makes the fragrant tea even more so when the tea is mixed with oxygen before it reaches your cup.
The two restaurants I recommend are rather old-fashioned traditional joints.
Btw, traditional S'hai cuisine uses a bit more sugar, which one might find surprising if one were not used to it. Don't say I didn't warn you...
"might require a few hits of Starbucks just for fortification."
There's a Starbucks right outside Ritz-Carlton. You are right again. Coffee isn't the country's forte. I always bring in my own coffee beans and my own Bodum coffee maker, and every time soon enough the French guests in my hotel will follow the trail of smell and come to my door to beg for a cup.
Great place for a pre- or post-dinner drink: M On The Bund.
O a strange thing about S'hai-HK. In HK it is chic to eat S'hai. In S'hai, it is chic to eat Cantonese. Go figure.
But neither side is all that successful in imitating the original, IMHO.
Shanghai cuisine itself is quite a dark horse amongst Chinese cuisines. I was dining at a Shanghainese restaurant in Vancouver last year and noticed that most patrons were Shanghainess speaking their funny dialect. And it just dawned on me -- who else would want to eat this oily and sweet stuff! Sorry
With that said, Shanghai is known for its snack food. I don't even know how to call any of them in English, but here is a short list of what I would consider not miss food in Shanghai (maybe you can just print the photos and bring them with you):
4. Da bing/ You Tiao and soy milk -- traditional Shanghainese workerman's breakfast. Everywhere on the street. The soy milk is always served pure, either plain or with suger in Shanghai, never adulterated like in Northern China.
WOW. Once again, ST is the bomb. Thanks to all for the highly informative and useful replies. I'm beginning to think I must have misread a paragraph regarding a cruise on the Yangtze.....maybe it was just down the Huangpo to the mouth of the Yangtze....something like 3 hours, could that be it?
I have read enough to be highly attuned to the potential dangers a candid political discussion could pose to Chinese nationals, and hope that I am a sensitive enough person to pick up on any reticence as very understandable caution. Nonetheless, I would dearly love to "see" the current situation through a local filter.
So am I in trouble food-wise if I'm not fond of sugar in my entree??? I'm all in favor of chocolate and creme brulee and such, but prefer my main meal to be savory or spicy.
We are leaving LAX 11pm-ish on 8/29, arriving S'hai on 8/31, returning to HK on 9/4, leaving Sept 5 or 6 (depending on which flights clear) I would, of course, prefer to stay longer, but I am traveling with a friend who won this trip and her free air and hotel nights are over a limited timeframe. And with free Business Class air and snazzy hotels, it would be churlish to complain.
Can't wait to order some Ba Bao tea ---- that is right up my alley. BTW, in the interests of being polite, how do I ask someone if it would be ok to take their photograph?
Thanks again,
Ring
Posts: 286 | Location: Gastonia NC, near Charlotte | Registered: 11 October 2005
"in the interests of being polite, how do I ask someone if it would be ok to take their photograph?"
How sensitive to ask! The Chinese are usually quite compliant about having their photos taken. But it is always polite to ask. If you smile and point at your camera, it will be understood by all and it is disarming.
"I have read enough to be highly attuned to the potential dangers a candid political discussion could pose to Chinese nationals, and hope that I am a sensitive enough person to pick up on any reticence as very understandable caution. Nonetheless, I would dearly love to "see" the current situation through a local filter."
Sorriest I did not mean to sound condescending in my cautioning. It may be difficult for you to get truly candid opinions. But you never know. Once in an alley where I dragged a volunteer French doctor to have some street food, a fellow patron asked us where we were from and got all dreamy about Paris! France! where he has never been, but this older, shabbily man eating standing has read his Hugo and his Dumas Père-Fils. He called Paris a dazzling city. I said: S'hai too is dazzling. He: S'hai is a lantern: bright outside, empty inside.
whoa!
Buddy has the best info about street food. I love street food in Asia, but a fellow ST has once sternly warned against its lack of hygiene. (He has a point though.)
I will just help out some of Buddy's recommendations that did not come with the actual Chinese characters. The language is tonal in such a way that reading Buddy's perfectly correct transcriptions, I still had to think for a long time and even had to look up some of the websites to see which characters he meant!
First of all, the main dishes do not taste sugary-sweet like a dessert. The glazed fish is actually very tasty that way. True, the pervasive sweetish taste in all food could get old... But I'm a fan of S'haiese food.
Da bing 大饼 You Tiao 油条 and soy milk 豆浆 "３traditional Shanghainese workerman's breakfast"
You can get them easily in the little alleys around the Ritz-Carlton. Just follow the heady soy milk smell. Ritz-Carlton does not serve them because they are considered too proletarian.
"Shanghai dumplings -- smaller than most Chinese dumplings, served in soups"
Buddy must mean Xiao Long Bao - 小笼包 there is also its excellent vegetarian version Su Jiao - 素餃 A tip: wear your dirtiest clothes when you eat these. The good ones are full of soup inside and burst when you bite into them. Once I hosted a dinner serving these dumpings to guests to whom I had asked to dress dirtily, including one guest who is actually the fairy godmother to us all - Ms Alice Waters. You can read about a hilarious account of the dinner in the April 2005 issue of Gourmet Magazine, written by the one and only C.Trillin. Back to S'hai, in the Old Temple complex 城隍庙 near the Bund, there is one dumpling stand that is always full of Chinese tourists from the provinces queuing up in front. That's all the description I can give you. Another tip: you are considered a hopeless wimp if you can't order or eat less than a dozen. The cook I hired to cater the above-mentioned dinner once said with seething contempt that where she came from, even the jeunes filles could pack at least 18 dumplings in one sitting, while my guests could hardly hit 10 after the 8 course dinner.
"Eel noodle"
It is great but, Buddy, it's not exactly everywhere... Don't worry, Ring, if you see it, you know it. It looks like what it is. The Chinese are proud about reconstituting the animal after cooking, therefore never worry about inadvertently eating an animal that you don't consider food for example...
Ring, if you are a real man among women, you'd dare this: Chou Dou Fu - 臭豆腐 (stinky tofu). Deep fried fermented tofu with a spicy dip. It is never seldom or never in restaurants because you don't want to imagine what aircon could do to the effect of that taste on the whole atmosphere and on your clothes. It is my fave dish. Again, it's the kind of street food that does not have a specific address. Just follow your nose.
O, and ba bao tea - 八寶茶
Lastly, to put you in the mood, watch Wong Karwai's movies (esp In the Mood for Love) about old HK. They are actually stories of the Shanghaiese in the 50s' HK, with their sophistication, their impeccable fashion sense, their own dialect intact, and un rien de nostalgie for the, yes, dazzling city they had to leave behind.
He called Paris a dazzling city. I said: S'hai too is dazzling. He: S'hai is a lantern: bright outside, empty inside
"Whoa" indeed....I often wonder what Nien Cheng (author of "Life and Death in Shanghai") thinks about China today. I assume she is still among the living, but she would be 92.
and quelle dinner party - Alice Waters AND Calvin Trillin!!! I think I remember reading the article, but will search my archives of Gourmet. I will be on the lookout for exploding dumplings and eel noodle, and will try to muster up my nerve for stinky tofu. I understand it is quite the local specialty, but if it is anything like the Japanese uni, I am doomed. Try as I might to develop at least a tolerance for it, it brings to mind a substance too repellent to discuss in civilized company. And I believe I could hold my own in a show of dumpling-eating prowess.... I dearly love them.
I'm off to find your referenced movie now, and merci bien for all your help and wonderful stories.
Ring
Posts: 286 | Location: Gastonia NC, near Charlotte | Registered: 11 October 2005
Originally posted by RingNC: .maybe it was just down the Huangpo to the mouth of the Yangtze....something like 3 hours, could that be it?
yes, that could be it. That may a pleasant time since August will be unsufferably hot in Shanghai. On the trip, Shanghainese like to look for the "three-colored water" at the mouth of the Yangtze, where the river Yangtze and river Huangpu meets the East China Sea.
quote:
Originally posted by RingNC: So am I in trouble food-wise if I'm not fond of sugar in my entree??? I'm all in favor of chocolate and creme brulee and such, but prefer my main meal to be savory or spicy.
Shanghai being a metropolis, one can easily find other Chinese cuisines. Try a different kind of Chinese food each day, from Sichuan(very spicy) to Northeast(featuring lamb, baked flat bread) to Chinese Muslim (featuring beef and curry).
By the way, please say Xiao Long Mantou instead of Xiao Long Bao in Shanghai -- you gain a lot of brownie points there. The rest of the China use the term Bao, which means meat-filled bun. Shanghainese are a stickler for their own dialect, and many other idiosyncrasies.
Eel noodles in Shanghai has shoestring-size eel strips, unlike anywhere else in China.
"Whoa" indeed....I often wonder what Nien Cheng (author of "Life and Death in Shanghai") thinks about China today. I assume she is still among the living, but she would be 92.
Ring, did you know Nien Chen? A relative of mine was close to her family.
Certain things described in Cheng's book have not changed in China, despite its outwardly economic success. I *think* Cheng would still be sad thinking of China.
Speaking of movies, Wong Kawei is also one of my favorite directors. I like his 2046 the most.
"The Shanghai dumplings are not Xiao Long Bao though, they are these:"
Little wontons! I didn't know that's how they are called in round-eyes language. Excuse me, I'm an unapologetic card-carrying Cantonese wonton chauvinist.
Which reminds me. Ring, in HK, go to Lo Fu Gay on 50 Lindhurst Terrace in Central district for the world's best wonton, and in such a hole in the wall. May not even have an English shop name. Look for 羅富記 . It also has great Cantonese congee (porridge) and fried carp head. Again wear dirty clothes. Then get a journalist friend or member friend to take you around the corner to the Foreign Correspondents Club immortalized in "The Honourary Schoolboy". It is the only landmark that has not been demolished, besides the Peninsula. (but between Law Fu Gay and the FCC, if you are dressed right for one place, you are dead wrong for the other. always .."
Yes the Gourmet mag article was a hoot and a half. But the dinner was a bigger hoot.
"Whoa" indeed....I often wonder what Nien Cheng (author of "Life and Death in Shanghai") thinks about China today. I assume she is still among the living, but she would be 92."
What a book. What a lady. She has remained a beauty - and I mean physically.
"Certain things described in Cheng's book have not changed in China, despite its outwardly economic success. I *think* Cheng would still be sad thinking of China."
Shanghai being a metropolis, one can easily find other Chinese cuisines. Try a different kind of Chinese food each day, from Sichuan(very spicy) to Northeast(featuring lamb, baked flat bread) to Chinese Muslim (featuring beef and curry).
Steve - what an excellent suggestion.
No, I do not know Nien Cheng personally, but hold her in the highest regard. She is a living example of all that is good about humankind, maintaining her wits, humor, intellect and fortitude against some of the worst elements of humanity. I admire and respect her tremendously.
Americana, I am a fiend for wonton, so will seek out the hole-in-the-wall in HK. This is going to be a most excellent trip.
Posts: 286 | Location: Gastonia NC, near Charlotte | Registered: 11 October 2005
On second thought, I actually think a trip to Hangzhou is a pretty good idea -- certainly beats the nondescript Huangpu River Cruise. It just seems like a shame to have gone to Shanghai and never seen Hangzhou -- a place the likes of Richard Nixon and Marco Polo heaved praises on, despite the fact some doubt the latter had ever set foot there.
If I were to do a day trip to Hangzhou, I'd hire a driver and a guide instead of taking the train. The expressway between Shanghai and Hangzhou is pretty good, and having a driver will save you some time.
Two weeks ago, the Sunday New York Times published a photo essay on Shanghai's residential streets. See if you can find that article. If you are interested in Shanghai's residential neighborhoods, please let me know.
Yes, I would love to visit some residential streets/houses in S'hai...have been trying to work some local contacts to accomplish same. What do you recommend???
Posts: 286 | Location: Gastonia NC, near Charlotte | Registered: 11 October 2005
Originally posted by RingNC: Yes, I would love to visit some residential streets/houses in S'hai...have been trying to work some local contacts to accomplish same. What do you recommend???
With three to four days, I'd probably stick to Central Shanghai. Shanghai is safe, the taxi cheap, the street signs bilingual and you won't have to look too hard to find an English speaking person. So take advantage of its colorful neighborhoods. Bring the business card from your hotel and you won't be lost.
Some of Central Shanghai's interesting neighborhoods:
1) "The Old Shanghai" surrounding the Yu Garden used to be called much worse by some people in Shanghai, because it was the poorest neighborhood in the city as many immigrants from other parts of China initially settled here. Today it still is an authentic place where an average Chinese person lives.
Try visit the Yu Garden in the morning and have lunch at the landmark Xiao Long Mantou restaurant there (the restaurant upstairs has a shorter queue as the price is higher -- worth it to skip the line). Afterwards, check out the neighborhoods south of the Garden with narrow alleyways full of bicycle shops, barber shops, and people living their lives in the open. If you have a map of Shanghai, look for the road "Henan Lu", a north-south major street in that area. Walk south on this street toward "Fuxing Lu", an east-west street. Around the intersection, you'll find a Muslim mosque, and not too far, a Confucian temple. Further south and walking east toward the bund, there is the gorgeous Dongjiadu Cathedral.
2) The French Concession -- the most bourgeois neighborhood today, even though its historical reputation is more mixed as it was the center of Chinese organized crimes in the 1930's. Start at the heart of the neighborhood, the Fuxing Park. Go early in the morning and watch the retirees exercising in the park. Just south of the park, look for the quiet lanes surrounding the Sun Yat San House. Afterwards, get on the famous "Huaihai Road", aka Rue Jouffroy, and walk west toward the US Embassy, watching the neighborhood become leafier and the noise quiet down as you pass one of busiest commercial centers in China.
One can easily spend days exploring Huai-hai Road and its surrounding streets. There seem to be hundreds of trendy restaurants, bakeries, cafes and night clubs. The streets Julu and Maoming north of Huai-hai is club-central in Shanghai. Pick up any English newspaper in Shanghai and you'd find several band performances every night in this neighborhood.
On the north-western edge of the French concession stands the Shanghai Exhibition Center. It was called Sino-Russian Friendship Mansion. A little piece of Kremlin in Shanghai.
3) Nanjing Road and People's Square in the center of Shanghai. Lots of neon and concrete on Nanjing Road, which seems to be the obligatory walk for tourists. You will be at People's Square when you visit the Shanghai Museum. Instead of walking Nanjing road, visit the parallel Fuzhou Road, a block to the south. You'll find a huge collection of book stores, including the Foreigner's Book Store.
4) Bund -- Symbol of Chinese Capitalism. Save your restaurant receipt to prove it. Just north of the Bund is the old Jewish Ghetto, an area surrounding Tilanqiao. Shanghai was one of few cities during WWII offering refuge to Jews -- that was until the Japanese started quarantining them in the Ghetto. Tilanqiao remained a poor area and still has some old residential streets left. It was reported that Bill Clinton insisted on visiting the old synagogue in this neighborhood on his (probably only) Shanghai trip. Here's an article on the Jewish history in Shanghai: http://www.gluckman.com/ShanghaiJewsChina.html
5) Suzhou Creek Art District. If you are an art lover, check out the Shanghai version of the Meatpacking District set in the middle of an industrial neighborhood on the bank of what used to be most polluted creek in China.
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