We are planning a family trip through UK, France, and Italy this summer (first trip to Europe in 18 years). I've spent hours online and have been able to learn and figure out most things. The one thing that still baffles me is the trains.
No matter how many places I search, the trains baffle me. I hear they are inexpensive, but when I check they look to be super expensive. For instance, a side trip from Paris to Caen to see Normandy would cost us (2 adults, 2 students, 1 child) $368 USD just for the 2 hour round trip. Then we would need to find transport from Caen to the Normandy sights at additional cost. We have several similar days planned with other side trips (Venice to Florence, Florence to Rome) and my only solution is to rent a car. I've been given dire warnings about renting a car and driving in Paris and Rome, so that also doesn't seem like a great solution. Am I missing something? The rental car will not be used to sightsee whithin the big cities where we can use the metro--just for side trips or for traveling between cities.
I have a feeling I'm going about it all wrong--I never use trains where I live (Southern California=no mass transit). It sounds like we could buy inexpensive tickets a the train stations and speed out of the congested cities with ease, but I want to have an idea of what it will cost. I love the idea of buying tickets on the spot and relaxing on the train, but I can't justify the cost I'm seeing.
It is confusing. Start by reading this wonderful guide to using trains in France by Kevin Widrow.
One way to save money on train travel is to buy "PREMS" tickets, which are offered a couple of months in advance and provide large discounts. I'm sure they are discussed in Kevin's guide.
We use the trains as much as we can in France and love them. We find them very economical compared to a car, but the economics of that obviously changes a bit when you traveling with a larger group.
Even with Kevin's guide, the SNCF (France train system) website is one of the more confusing you'll ever find, so don't hesitate to come back here with questions. It's best if you pretend to be French and can fight your way through the French language version. If you admit to being an English speaker, they'll try to push you off on the Rail Europe site where the prices are considerably higher.
Are you saying you don't understand why trains seem so expensive? Probably because there are 5 of you.
France: The French train system (SNCF) has a very complex pricing structure. Varying the hour of departure can mean a huge price difference. Example: for our trip to Annecy (3.5 hours train, mostly on the much more expensive TGV high speed train), Paris->Annecy was 29 per person. Return was 80 per perseon.
Normandy: Since there are 5 of you, a car is proably the less expensive option, especially when your destination is the Normandy beaches, which means places not covered by the train system anyway. Try to spend one night on the coast, just to break up the driving and make the trip more enjoyable and less strenuous.
Italy: There are very frequent trains among Venice, Florence and Rome. In those cases, even if the train cost total exceeds car rental (but Italian trains ought to be inexpensive), I would still recommend you use the train just to avoid the aggravation of dealing with the traffic and getting ensnared by the traffic ticket nightmare.
The french railroad have special fares for families, week-ends and whathaveyou, but yes, a roundtrip from Paris to Caen is going to be 60 Euro per head (approx.) full price, so in your case 240 Euro (small children don't pay), which translates to 360 Dollars. Mind you, a regular tgv ticket to Avignon can be well over 100 Euro one way. Rent a car for the day (tolls will be around 30 euro, gas around 55 euro, the car I don't know, around 70 probably), but don't go on a week-end because sunday evenings, the road back to Paris can be bumper to bumper from the coast to the city.
Hey, just checked, you can get tickets in June (August is too early to book) for four adults+1child bet. 4-11 for 74.60 Euro 1 way, so it's not that bad!
Alley, there were 5 of us (adults) using train travel throughout Europe and we purchased rail passes before we left.
We got a hefty discount because we were a group, but the conditions stipulated that we must travel together at all times.
Have you tried for family discount? We bought our passes through Railsplus which is an Australian based company and paid in Aussie dollars. I'm pretty sure (if you are American) that your country would have something similar.
Elly
Posts: 1042 | Location: Western Australia | Registered: 27 March 2005
I just want to say that I felt exactly the same way about the cost until I learned how to do it on the French site. Everthing that Chris suggested was very true for me. It was almost like taking a tutorial on how to navigate the site. I wrote everything down and did it step by step as well as selecting to pick up the tickets in a French station (with showing the same credit card it was purchased on as your identification). We traveled overnight from Nice to Venice for only 45 Euros each which I considered a bargain.
With a party of 5 you are going to have your hands full whichever form of transport you choose.
With a car you have problems in the cities and for 5 of you, you will need a large car which in Europe can be very expensive. Not so bad if it is for day trips only but if you have to carry luggage as well you are looking at a van type of car.
With the trains do as others have said and really check the options. Again you will need the students to help load luggage on and off.
Posts: 329 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 16 January 2007
Still baffled--have re-read the train guide and tried the French SNCF website. I changed the language to English (kept country to collect tickets as France), but then the language changed back to French and I got stuck, but since I can't read French, I couldn't figure out what I had done wrong. Even if I get through the French site, I'll have to figure out the Italian trains too. Raileurope is easier for me to figure out, but expensive. I'm sure the locals don't pay that much for using the trains.
I'm thinking of giving up and visiting a travel agent. Do travel agents have much knowledge of this? I need to compare the cost of car vs. railpass vs. individual tickets vs. a combination of train and car. I guess I am spoiled by the internet and having all that control myself to choose our best option and I hate to turn anything over to a travel agent.
You didn't do anything wrong--you can only book in French on the SNCF site. I didn't find it confusing--my high school french plus the babelfish translation website allowed me to book pretty easily. Also, like someone said, the cheapest fares sell out (like air travel). Look for PREMS fares.
I think people gave you excellent advice above but I will add that when people say "trains are cheap in Europe", that's not a very accurate generalization. I find trains quite inexpensive in southern Europe, but I don't think they are "cheap" in northern Europe at all. Efficient, economical depending on the route/size of party, fast, yes. But not necessarily "cheap." And with 5 people, that's when people would rent a car instead-I honestly don't see why you are considering the train at all with such a large group.
You say you don't want to drive in Paris and you shouldn't have to. If you need a car for a day or overnight to Normandy, a better solution would be to ask here where an easy place to pick up a car in Paris would be, or perhaps there's a suburban location that would work well for you (via the metro). Get a car with a GPS is they are available--the system is a godsend for getting you out of cities. I know a lot of people train to Orly airport then get a car, but that's the wrong direction from Normandy. I've dropped off a car at CDG then easily taken the RER back to Paris. I'm sure others will have suggestions for where to rent.
As for Italy, it's quite easy to get a car and do day trips from Florence or Venice.
I personally doubt you'll find a travel agent to help you navigate this--I think they'll just use rail europe.
Can you give us specifics about the train trips you want, if you know that now? If so, I might be able to fight my way through the site and give you some numbers to work with in your comparison to cars, railpasses, etc. I don't see your trip dates in your earlier message. You can't book train trips too many months in advance, but if you're not within three months, I could at least get you "ballpark" numbers to look at.
Christy you are spot on. As to a place to rent that's close to the city exit to Normandy, the "Porte Maillot" springs to mind. It's on Line 1, big place. Head towards La Defense, get on the A14, the A13 and 2 hours later you're in Caen. Alternatively: rent in La Defense, direct access from Metro Line 1 as well.
I could at least get you "ballpark" numbers to look at.
Chris, that's what I did yesterday !
quote:
Hey, just checked, you can get tickets in June (August is too early to book) for four adults+1child bet. 4-11 for 74.60 Euro 1 way, so it's not that bad!
Here is our itenary (2 adults, 2 students, 1 child)--I don't want anyone to trouble themselves much, but maybe by looking at it you can advise me on train vs. car in general. I've reserved a van for 10 days ($1312.76) and gas/toll/parking costs according to Viamichelin are $945 for a total of $2257.76. This is the first time I had added up all the cost for toll and gas--yikes! Not very cheap either!!
Itenerary: Paris--no car until last two days. Side trip to Giverny. Side trip to Caen/Normandy beaches. Next day drive Paris to Blois and continue on to Chamonix same day. 4 days in Chamonix (no car needed). Then drive Chamonix to Mestre (Venice). 2 nights in Mestre (no car needed). Then drive from Venice to Rome with a quick stop in Florence on the way. Turn the car in on arrival in Rome. Yes, I know this doesn't qualify for Slow travel. Many reasons for this whirlwind trip--hope to return someday at a much slower pace. We don't mind driving even in cities (though avoiding it would be a plus). My biggest concern is to keep the cost down. Adding up all the costs for the van, I am pretty sure we will be better off on the trains. The only day I think we would really benefit from having the freedom of the car is our trip to Normandy.
Maybe just a four or five day regional railpass would work best. I think it would cost less than the car and easier than tackling the train system on my own.
We don't have much flexibility in our itenerary--locked in with rental agreements for apartments. Thanks all for your help.
So how does the 10-day rental equate to your itinerary? Are you planning to pick up the car in Paris and drop it in Rome, keeping it the 4 days in Chamonix and the two nights in Venice?
OK, I did a little noodling around on the sncf site, choosing dates pretty much at random.
I got a total of 81 euro for round trip Paris/Vernon for your Giverny trip for all five of you. I assumed that the two students were between 12 and 25 and the child between 4 and 12.
Round trip Paris/Caen for the same 5 people is 174 euro.
One way to Blois was 64
As I suspected, it wouldn't give me a route from Blois to Chamonix, but Paris/Chamonix was 260 for all five of you one way.
If this were my trip, I'd rent the car for the Normandy part of the trip, stopping by at Giverny since it's on the way.
The day of travel stopping off at Blois on the way to Chamonix doesn't really work very well since the trip from Paris to Chamonix is more than 8 hours and that's on the high-speed TGV. If you attempt to drive it, you'll never make it and I don't think you can do it in one day even going to Blois by train and returning to Paris for the train to Chamonix.
From Chamonix, I'd suggest you post for help on the Italy forum.
Overall, you're trying to do way too much in 10 days, but you probably know that, don't you? With 4 days in Chamonix and 2 in Venice, you've got only 4 left for Normandy, going all the way to Venice, then from Venice to Rome (with that short stop in Florence). It just doesn't add up given the distances, even on the train.
Another thing to consider is how much more relaxing it is to just sit down on a train and watch the scenery compared to driving and navigating. It's also usually much quicker, unless your route involves lots of connections.
Chris, actually Prems tickets are cheaper than 12-25 tickets. The 4 adults prems fare is cheaper than the "discounted" 12-25 fare. They don't "prems" the 12-25 rate. Read my post. Prems one way to Caen is Euro 74.60. Round trip E 129.20, not E 174.
Great, David, thanks! That's for all 5 people? That probably means that all of the estimates I gave are high, although a few didn't have PREMS available, so maybe not.
Given that, I'd probably take the train to Caen and pick up the car for a day or two there, then train back to Paris.
I've been doing the same and the two big problems are the Normandy trip and Blois-Chamonix.
Unfortunately, our last name is Blois and everyone has there heart set on visiting there (personally, I'd skip it, but that is not an option). My latest thought is the car from Paris to Chamonix and then possibly trains from there. Ugh. So complicated.
Yes, it is a lot in a short time (the entire trip is 3 weeks--I'll spare you the details). I must admit, I'm not one for lingering hours at museums and I avoid guided tours at all costs. I'm sort of a speed traveler. I guess since it is the only chance we have to take our kids to Europe, I want to see as much as possible. It is hard to know what is best. Next time, I'll go slow!
