Having just returned from Italy again, I continue to feel inadequate about not being able to speak another language. I took Italian in college but quickly lost it. I've vowed that by the next time I go to Italy in 2 years, I want to be able to speak the language very well if not fluently. How have you learned another language and in your opinion, what's the best way to go about it?

Hey Dennis,

I'm actually in Philadelphia, too.

My best advice I could ever give someone who wants to build on what they've learned in language class is to get as much music as you can in that language and sing sing sing along. I was frustrated, too, after 2 years of University Italian and i still kinda sucked at it.... then I discovered italian pop music (daniele silvestri and tiziano ferro to name a shameful few) and learned the words and sang along. For the first 4 or 5 songs, i sat and translated them with the lyrics i got from the internet.... but after listening to and singing to italian music for a few weeks, i was able to understand more without looking at the words. my pronunciation got SO much better, too. my first two weeks in italy blubbering through the italian language was spent with people saying, "you said that wrong... but with a killer milanese accent!" haha.

my other favorite (and maybe kinda girly) singers to sing along to are:

giorgia, francesco di gregori, irene grandi, jovanotti

google or search for them on itunes and get a few songs. you'll want something that's catchy so you can really belt it out and remember the words. you already have the grammar in your brain (even if it doesn't feel like it)... you just need to get some practice...

on a more practical note for learning italian: come to the italian language meetup in philly! i've never been, but just discovered today that they meet on sundays from 6-9pm at Cherry St. Tavern on 22nd St. I'll probably go this Sunday to chat it up. There's no pressure to talk and there a lot of beginners from what I read. I found it on Yahoo groups. You should come! It's my first time going this week.... we could be newbies together

I hope any of this helps. Good luck!

Thanks Piccolina. The Cherry Street thing sounds interesting but I'll be in Atlanta over the weekend. I did find a couple of good resources for language through the Italian Consulate in Philadelphia. On the singing to learn, I'll need to do that alone, probably in the shower. I think Andrea Bocelli may be more my speed than Italian pop music.

I have two very different language learning experiences.

My first second language is French, which I studied for 10 years throughout high school and university. In all that time I've only spent three weeks in France. Give me a dictionary and a verb book and I can write you a great essay. Put me in France and expect me to live - hell, I can't even buy an icecream! The hardest thing for me is understanding French people speaking French - I just don't have the ear for it because I'm not used to hearing it. And when I do speak French, I'm usually so caught up in structuring my tenses properly that I never end up saying anything! I need to spend a few months in France just being immersed in the language - it does wonders.

My second second language is Italian. My father is Italian, but we speak English at home. Until my time at the University for Foreigners in Perugia this year, I had a pretty good ear for Italian and could understand most things, but all I could do was parrot a few phrases (usually swear words) that I'd heard my dad say. I came to Italy knowing not much Italian at all, and the need to communicate was more important than the need to speak elegantly, so tenses and conjugations went out the window - as did genders, agreement of adjectives and correct placement of pronouns. After nearly four months here, I know more rules and more tenses, but I also speak confidently and don't worry too much if I screw things up.

After only four months in Italy, I speak better Italian than I do French. Although my written French is much more sophisticated and correct than anything I'd ever write in Italian.

Dennis-

What kind of resources did you find in Philly? I'd be interested in checking some out. I'm nearing the end of my 6 months here before going back to Italy and until recently have found very little in the way of conversation groups.

And I'm sorry to say, I think Saint Bambi nailed it... the best way to really become fluent is by going to a country where they speak the language you wish to learn. Another tip that one of my professors gave me to keep up my italian skills while i was on haitus from being in italy for a couple months--- talk to yourself. Whenever you're alone, talk to yourself in italian. Just stupid things, like, "Io apro la porta... sto mettendo via le mie chiavi... adesso guardo la tv... o magari leggo un bel libro." OOOH... and get italian books or magazines and read them aloud... that helps a lot.

Bambi-- I noticed your in Verona... I've been living in and out of Trento for the past couple of years and am returning in July. have you ever ventured up north? I love verona... despite it's permafog. it's a great place to live because you can get so many places so easily

I recommend doing two things: 1) read a lot, and 2) listen a lot. I wouldn't exactly start with La Repubblica, but there are many good intermediate Italian lit books out there with stories. This helps build vocabulary. Second, watch a lot of Italian flicks. Turn on the Italian subtitles so you can match the actor's words with the subtitle.

You also need to speak it but that's the biggest hurdle. Meetups are a good way to do it, or just have imaginary conversation with yourself. It's a bit odd at first but it does help.

In terms of reading: Whatever level you are reading at, wean yourself from the dictionary. If you look up every word you don't understand, you will get nowhere. Just try to get the gist of things, and, if you must, make a list of the words you don't understand and look them up later.

Actually, newspapers are not a bad place to read, if you already have some knowledge. In a novel, the voices and tenses change; in La Repubblica, there are a lot of words you will not get, but it's all in the present tense. And if the "voice" changes from that of the writer, it's in quotes.

M

the best way to learn any language is to go to a country where it's spoken. that's how i learned italian.

quote:

Bambi-- I noticed your in Verona... I've been living in and out of Trento for the past couple of years and am returning in July. have you ever ventured up north? Smile I love verona... despite it's permafog. it's a great place to live because you can get so many places so easily Smile

Hi Piccolina,

This is the furthest north I've ever been. It's a shame, as my maternal grandfather and grandmother come from Castelfranco Veneto and the Valtellina. I'm hoping to visit Castelfranco tomorrow, but the Valtellina looks like it could be tricky without a car. I would love to see the "crotti" though, as that was my grandmother's surname!

The farmhouse which my grandfather lived in until he left for Australia in 1927 is now a four star hotel! Hard to believe he was sending money back to his family there until the early sixties. I'm looking forward to seeing it. My mum visited in 1953 and she said it was like visiting a third world country, so it will be interesting to compare!

I add my voice to the READ IN ITALIAN crowd. I held off for ages because it just frustrated me too much. My solution was to buy a novel that I'd read before in English. That way I at least knew the storyline. I'm still reading it, and it's hard work reading it, but it gets easier with every chapter. I've just bought a guidebook to the Veneto in Italian too, mainly because it was the only Veneto guidebook in English OR Italian that didn't devote 75% of its pages to Venice. Now I'll have to read in Italian!

My grandmother

Hi Dennis, I'm back to reading my first message on the board since we moved back to the Phila area after 15 years in Southern California, but it's an interesting one! I'd like to know also about the recommendations of the Italian Consulate, because I'd like to link up with Italian speakers here, too. I started from ground zero in the language in 2000, like you, without any student background in Italian. Now, five years later, I'm conversant, but certainly not fluent. Resources: going to Italy, naturally, but I don't have the time or money for an extended stay either (see my essay on the board here somewhere about studying Italian in Italy); amassing several grammar texts and workbooks and learning on my own; subscribing to the audiotape magazine Acquerello Italiano, beyond a beginner's level, but very helpful in acquiring an ear for different Italian speakers, regional accents, male and female, etc, and an interesting format; finding chatrooms and grammar forums on the Internet in Italian; watching movies (hopeless at first, subtitles mandatory to catch the story, I'm sure there's a good video rental place near you with an inventory of movies to watch; classes (most helpful at first)and/or private lessons (expensive unless you find a starving graduate student who's a native Italian speaker); Italian newspapers on the Internet, impenetrable at first but if you get an idea or choose an international topic you've read already in English, it helps; various tape/CD series that are recommended by Slow Travelers (use the search function on the website). Most of your progress will depend on you and what you put into the effort; I became very motivated by the initial frustration you feel and the delight in the small achievements that sometimes plateau-ed and then made a new leap forward. You'll get there! Take heart!

I recommend against newspapers right away because of the style of Italian journalists. It's different than our own, and can seem convoluted.

Well, whether its the right first step or not, I did it. I signed up today for Italian 101 at my local community college. It was $238 for the 3 credit course. I've taken it before, some time ago, but it's a good way for me to provide structure for my learning. I'll also take the other advice, grazie.

By the way Carol, we're just outside of Chestnut Hill, where are you?

Buy some collections of Italian folk songs. The music is fun to listen to and the pace and vocabulary are easy to keep up with (you can find internet translations of a lot of the lyrics to help you along).

See if your library stocks "OGGI" magazine. It is light reading with a fair amount of tabloid stuff, but again easy to follow and plenty of pictures to help you along.

Try Rosetta Stone for a computer-based, self-paced learning approach. The various screens allow you to see and say, hear and say, etc. The feature I liked best was a voice match to give you feedback on your spoken efforts versus the Italian speaker.

Find a class that emphasizes conversation (my county runs adult education classes during both day and evening hours with classes for a variety of levels of interest and ability)

Finally, just take a deep breath and talk when you are in Italy. I've found the Italians to be extremely forgiving of any deficiencies in accent or vocabulary.

Buona fortuna!!

quote:

Originally posted by Rar:
I recommend against newspapers right away because of the style of Italian journalists. It's different than our own, and can seem convoluted.

I get a charge out of trying to figure out whether words that occur constantly (Poggi, for example, or Prodi last fall) are ordinary nouns or names in the news. The scandal-loving Italian press provides many such challenges.

M

i'm with rar.

newspapers were far too overwhelming in the beginning and i just got frustrated and gave up easily if i ever tried to read them.

the first italian website i found and was actually able to keep up with was www.deejay.it. it's a stupid website of the radio deejay station. but the writing is easy to read, you can listen to italian music/radio and there's even a chat room so you can practice your skills! i owe most of my slang vocabulary to that chat room...

if you have patience for this kind of pop culture stuff... you should give it a look.

Dennis

I got online RUSH HOUR ITALIAN by Berlitz b( $30) from Amazon. I downloaded it to my ipod and listen all the time. I am working with my 2 small children this summer when school is out.. 1 hour a day of Italian. Its sing songy and sticks to you. Make some flash cards....... Hey who cares if you talk to yourself......... when I am walking my neighbors just wave as they hear me doing the lessons...........

Okay, I cannot claim any great success, but I have gone from zero Italian to having basic conversations with Italian friends in their homes. Some things that helped a lot:

1) Rosetta Stone was a suberb start, I gained a TON of vocabulary.

2) Pimsleur tapes/Cds were great, and made the single largest difference for me. I got them on ebay for a good price, and just wish they would do a level four for Italian.

3) Staying in rural areas while in Italy and being forced to use the language. I have immigrant friends who say "You will never really learn the language until it is truly NECESSARY."

4) Find a conversation partner. This has helped me more than pricey private lessons, college courses, etc. You gain a lot of practical current language skills instead of "the pencil in on the table" stuff. My conversation partner and I met up through Craig's list, it is free, fun and I have a new friend!

5) Don't be shy about trying! This is still my biggest problem, but it is getting better. I finally realized I will never never never speak the language perfectly, but it slowly gets better all the time.

I took 1 year of French in junior high and 4 years of Spanish (high school and college) but never really learned much more than 2 or 3 tenses and basic verbs/vocabulary. Definitely not enough to get by at all if I went to Spain. Twenty years later, I decided to study Italian.

I was not able to get into the beginner class right away, so I signed up for the 2nd level class (adult ed classes). The beginner class ended up being held after all but started a few weeks later. Although I was lost at first, it ended up working out well as I don't think just taking the beginning class would have been enough but by taking both, I could use my Italian a little bit that summer. Also, because of my previous experience with Spanish and a tiny bit of French, I did not get hung up on the "why" of feminine/masculine nouns, the verb tenses, and the adjective placements. It was funny but at first Spanish would come out of my mouth which I thought was amazing as I hadn't used it at all in almost 20 years. I took 4 classes in all before going to Siena (my second trip to Italy) to study there for 3 weeks.

I think that the adult ed classes I took (from an excellent teacher who is originally from Milan and who really stressed grammar) and the fact that I lived with a woman in Siena for 3 weeks who spoke only Italian were the best things that helped me in my quest to learn Italian. When I returned from my trip, I took another class here and everyone was amazed at the difference in my Italian. I was still at only an advanced beginner level but I was better than before leaving for my trip. I continued to advance some and have gotten close to the intermediate level after a couple more years of adult ed classes and another 2 weeks in Siena, but the past couple of years, I have not studied very much which proably is why I seem to be stuck at the same level or perhaps regressed some.

I do listen to Italian radio stations and try to watch the Rai regional news on the internet when I get the chance. I have bought many region 2 Italian DVDs so that I can watch the DVD's in Italian and read Italian subtitles. I have lots of Italian CDs (both language CDs and music CDs). I listen to them in my car in traffic to/from work. I try to read a few articles in one of the Italian newspapers when I get a chance. My friends write to me in Italian and when I get the chance I write back in Italian (although this takes me forever). I also have bought some childrens books (2nd to 3rd grade reading level) and I have TONS of Italian language books but most of them just sit on my shelf these days. Maybe I should spend less time on this site and more time reading my books??

All of these things help, but the most helpful is being back in Italy and only speaking Italian, even if I need my dictionary, unless I am in a big jam where English is necessary. I also watch a lot of Italian TV at night (mostly American shows dubbed in Italian and also movies - all of which obviously do not have subtitles). My favorite show last summer was Carabinieri as I could understand almost everything.

I start to think in Italian and get more fluent while there, but once I step on American soil, all that progress seems to go out the window! My dream is to some day spend a few months there to get to that advanced level. I know I would have to live there for years to become completely fluent.

I think, trying to use as many different ways (music, books, cds, italian classes, a chance to practice with someone, etc.) and your commitment and your time where you can be immersed in the language are all helpful. This has been a 7 year process for me...and it takes time. Yes, I have also been SO frustrated, but I have also felt the success after a lot of hard work. Ahh...the day when I can retire and devote more time to this quest...

After 5 years I'm still an advanced beginner. One of the reasons I travel by bus and train when I'm in Italy is that you can often start a conversation. If you're American they are happy that you are trying to learn the language.

Here in the DC metro area I take classes and listen to RAI news both on TV and on the computer. At the beginning I couldn't pick out any words. Now I know the words I'm hearing so combined with the video I can figure out what's going on.

I would also try to read newspapers and beginner books. Even if you only figure out the headlines, you are still building vocabulary and keeping it fresh in your mind. Try to read aloud though, I find when I read silently, sloppy pronunciation makes it way through. Buona fortuna!

Hi Girasoli,

Is your teacher Daniela? I found her at KCC adult education and she's terrific. We leave for Italy June 15--when do you go?

I just started last September but also had a little French and Spanish background.

Aloha, Ann

Hi Ann,
Yes, I have taken many classes from Daniela. It got to a point where there were not enough people to take the more advance (which were still more of advanced beginner/intermediate level classes) and the long drive home to Ewa at night after working all day got to be too much and so I have not taken a class from her recently. I also took one class from a guy named Guido at UH (a night class) but I am not sure if he is still teaching. I learned so much and thought both were great teachers! I leave for Italy on the 12th. I put my itinerary on the community calendar. I looked at your itinerary a while ago and it doesn't look like we will overlap at all. Tell Daniela I say hello if you are still attending her class and have a great trip!!
susan

Hi Susan,

Yes, I'm still studying with Daniela and will certainly say hi. I also have a long trip back home at night after class (over the hill). Poor us, we live in Hawaii. Looks as if we'll just miss each other in Venice. We were there molti anni fa.

Have an extra gelato for me till I get there.
Ann