As an Italian language student, I would like input from the Italians here on when it is appropriate to use the 2nd person and when the 3rd. I get the feeling that "tu" is used more in Italy than in France. I am 60 years old, by the way. I would really like guidance on this, am not trying to start an argument, I just want to be polite and appropriate. Thanks for your help, everyone.

"Lei" is the formal way to talk with everyone. "Tu" is very confidential and used between friends and in some case (not always) between collegues.

Adult people use "lei" form with everyone else. Two persons meet, start to talk with "Lei" form and if they, day after day, find that their "stay together" can become a friendship, one of them after a reasonable piece of time (it depends on frequency they meet), naturally, propose to use "tu" asking: "Lei crede che possiamo darci del tu?" = "Do you [third person in italian that in English sounds: Does he] think we can speak in tu form?"

When you talk with very young people, I mean pupil or student under 20, you can use "tu" form with them and they use "lei" form talking with you. Actually teachers are used to accept the "tu" form from their students. I don't judge this but I remember when my teachers used with me the "lei" form and I was twelve: I felt adult !!!

I agree with everything ikol22 wrote.... but.....
nowadays young people tend to use "tu" with everybody... my mom (65 y.o.) is always upset with this as in her days people that didn't know each other quite well ALWAYS used "lei".
I'm 34 and I ALWAYS use "lei" to address anybody older than I am and most of the time also people my age or a bit younger specially when we have a "formal" or professional relationship, usually not with my friends' friends for example.
In my opinion if you use "lei" you're never wrong... (unless you're addressing a young child ), people might tell you "diamoci del tu" or "mi dia del tu" if they prefer to pass to "tu" terms.

To take this off on a bit of a tangent:

The expression dare del tu is such a nice one, but one that doesn't seem to translate well into English.


(Edited to add: Oh Giulia, your mother is younger than I am. I HATE when that happens. )

I do the opposite, I tend to use much more the "tu" form and limit the "lei" use to very formal situations, or as a form of respect with people much the senior of me (75 or older), unless they "have the look" that tells me that they would prefer to be addressed with the "tu" (for insntance, I nave never met personally poet and actor Remo Remotti, but as I was watchin a very brief interview with him this morning, I immediately felt I wold use the "tu" form with him: it's a matter of pratice and habit, overall). Also the context is relevant: on the web the "tu" form is extremely prevalent if not unique. Also, the "lei" is more often used in the "provinces", while the in main cities the "tu" is more common. As Giulia says, you can hardly be wrong using the "lei", but then you can hardly be wrong using the "tu" too. probably, for a student using the lei, which is a tad more difficult when it comes to building the verbs may be more useful.

Using the "lei" form with very yong people may make them feel adult, more often it will make them feel mocked or ancient.

I was very surprised to usually be addressed in the second person, since I am used to French. However, it did not bother me at all. I would not like to be called grassa or brutta, or anything like that though. And I like to imagine that I look so much younger than I am

Personally I use Lei as the default way to address people. I never get the Tu as a granted habit.

"Tu" may show friendliness, closeness but also condescension.

The Tu can be perceived as being intrusive among people that were not introduced each other previously.

You could rise some eyebrow and silent looks saying :
And then what? are you going to pat on my shoulders?

There are exceptions

People sharing the same profession traditionally address each other with the "tu" even though they never met before.

Think about people belonging to the same "guild", like engineers, journalists, doctors for example. A reminiscence from the past when guilds were even stronger than they are now.


Also, personally I don't like employers who habitually address employees with the tu.

This is not coming from an exigence of hierarchic distance, but for an elementary exigence of respect toward the employees or from the employer. remember? condescension.

One can dismiss this as hypocrisy, but I really think there is some substance.

Ehi Joe do you know what? You are fired.
pat pat

Probably I'm excessive, but I also switch from tu to lei when young people become older.

For example a girl has the right to choose if consent or not other persons to show familiarity toward her, despite the fact that they saw her doing strange things when drinking her glass of milk.

The fact that I actually saw her doing bubbles with her nose twelve years before doesn't grant me the right to show familiarity toward her if she doesn't want now.

I'm not mocking her, I call it respect.

Personally, despite having a degree in Italian, having lived almost 20 years in Italy and also being married to an Italian for 17 years, I STILL commit the most dreadful 'gaffes' in this department. I also really struggle when trying to teach the subtle rules to my own kids, and tend to just say - apart from with close family - "when in doubt, use 'Lei' until someone insists that you change to 'tu'."

It really is a question of trial and error, for me, and there are no hard and fast rules. For example, my father-in-law and I ALWAYS used 'Lei' to address each other. I just followed his lead, and he was a very formal person. However, my husband's aunt (who has only met me twice in my whole life!) still insists that we both use 'tu' in our phone conversations! My mother-in-law and I started using the 'tu' form after about 3-4 years of knowing each other, upon her suggestion.

I have been for check-ups to doctors' surgeries in Italy, where, after 10 minutes of initial conversation, it's been suggested that we switch to 'tu' (because we were about the same age, and discovered we had friends in common). There are restaurants I go to where the owners and waiters always call me 'tu', even though I maybe only go twice a year, and I have worked in offices for years with the same colleagues, some of whom have still always insisted on calling me 'Lei' (and it's not always to do with their 'position' in the company hierarchy, just what they are used to or more comfortable with...

I suppose what I am really saying is, start with 'Lei' - except with children - then just "go with the flow".

A very old joke. Two priests are long term friends, so they address each other in "tu" terms. One of them becomes a bishop, so out of reverence his long term should switch to "lei" and vice versa to keep the distance.

The priest: "Posso continuare a darti del tu?"
The bishop: "Faccia lei"

As a fellow struggling student of Italian, I use Lei for everyone. Even friends. There is too much to learn as it is. IMHO, worry about the tu form once your have a true grasp of the language.

Spinnaker, in the language school I attended (and am returning to for another month) the tu form is used for everyone -- teachers, students, etc. I don't know if it is more common in Sicily than other places, but I NEVER heard "lei" used. (students ranged in age from teens to 70s, teachers were young, 20s-30s I'd guess. I do not have a problem remembering both, just curious what is appropriate. I addressed a 70ish friend (not student, a local) with "lei" and she asked me not to do so. Now, in Spanish I ALWAYS use "usted" except with children, in French "vous." That is why I posed the question here, I am trying to learn what is appropriate.

Paolo is right, I agree almost with all he say, except the use of the lei for the emplyees. I mean maybe in a big factory or so forth, but in a small business keeping on giving lei it is received as a way to keep a distance.

Of course you should allow the employees to use the TU with you.

And I also agree with spinnaker, but on reverse.

Use the tu untill you know the language so well that you can make a distinction.

One little trick: wait until the other person has spoken and do the same, if the other person uses the "lei" form or grets formally ("buongiorno" etc.) use the "lei" too, if the other person uses the "tu" and greets informally ("ciao"), use the "tu". If you start the conversation, say "Salve", which is neither formal nor informal.

Paolo: I never switch from "tu" to "lei" unless requested to do so with people I have known for a long time. If requested, for future contacts I pretty much limit myself to greetings, if I ever greet again.

Yes Alice as you notice being requested to switch back to Lei can be surprising and even offending; and normally one doesn't ask it at all for politeness, even though a little more space in between would be possibly desired.

That's why I do it.

A short exchange of words and a smile can easily revert to Tu again, but I give the chance to choose.

So far I would say my point has always been understood and has led to more Tu's than Lei's; still some Lei stand, and I took no offense.