A thread with a complaint about a business on the Italy forum turned into a discussion of how the moderators are running the Slow Travel forums. I copied those posts to this new thread so that the original thread can remain about the original topic.
Pauline: Hi. I promise I'm not criticizing; I just want to know. I'm trying to figure out why someone representing a business is not allowed to post in response to a comment.
You have to understand that I'm from the "thick-skinned," editorial-page-editor, newspaper background -- that is, the free-exchange of not-libelous ideas. This board refines that to edit "not-nice" ideas too, and, although I don't agree with that, I love the site and I'm OK with that rule.
But I can't for the life of me figure out why someone can point out publicly here a problem with some business and the very person pointed at publicly can't write back and (nicely and not libelously) comment about the details.
It seems a leap of faith to expect that the original poster would necessarily be fair with the business and follow with absolutely fair comment. That is not to say that they wouldn't be fair, just that it's tough as a business owner to hang one's hat on the idea that someone with a complaint would always take the time to present the final resolution.
So, just wondering. I don't know where else to ask. Thanks. And I do mean that.
Cheers
Posts: 505 | Location: Logan, Utah, USA | Registered: 02 June 2006
I guess I am sorry to have missed Mr. Bea's reply in the short time it was up. There is a part of me, after having read through all of the above, that would like to know what he had to say, in his own words.
Disclosure here is that we have visited the Bea winery, had a tour with Giampero Bea, and never had a problem with e-mails to the Bea Winery. I sense that there were some real communication problems in this situation and I feel very badly for Dorit and her family. I also know that Giampero Bea is a very decent person.
The moderators discussed this and decided they do not want to have the business and the client to work things out publicly. That is not what these boards are for. With this thread it was turning into a "he said - she said" thing and that is not fun to watch. Already Dorit was being jumped on for complaining about a business that many of you love. If we then allow the business owner to jump in, no one will ever want to post a complaint again and we will all lose out.
Chowhound has a similar policy. This is from their TOS: "We realize it's disheartening to see negative things said about your restaurant, but Chowhound prohibits customer service and "spin control". While there are many means for restaurants to message and engage their public, Chowhound is a rare bastion for pure consumer discussion. In the end, the dining enthusiasm we generate makes Chowhound a very good friend to this industry, and we ask commercial parties to help foster this environment by resisting the urge to join the fray."
I must admit that I completely understand the reason for such a rule... to put flames out before they spark. But it is walking a very fine line.
Mr. Bea Took the time to sign on to this board and address an issue head on. To me, that means he values this board as a resource, and he was responsible enough to put himself out there in the line of fire.
I read his reply, and it was well-written and respectful. He basically explained that he cannot do all of the tours because he spends most of his time supervising the winery and their current construction project. He also stated that the perosn that did the tour regularly does them, and that Ms. Dorit's visit was never confirmed, so she arrived unexpectedly. He asserted that the tour was the same tour that they do for others.
Pauline - just saw today's postings. I noticed that "Bea Winery" became a new member this morning but could not find any posts from them. Now I see that whatever they posted was removed by the mods.
Since I promised to update if anything came of this "adventure" I would like you, and everyone else, to know that I took your suggestion last week (when your mail to them bounced and I did not have any indication that my mail to them was received) and printed out my mail and faxed it to them.
I did not receive anything back from them. But I did get a confirmation that my fax went through.
Is there any possibility that I might see what they wanted to post on this thread? Or would that be a "no-no"? Appreciate your time and trouble.
And just as an "aside", my reservation WAS confirmed and there was never any request for a phone call to confirm or anything else. I DO realize that there were e-mail problems then, and still are now, and will take note for future reference.
Wow, this is a tough one. Of course consumers should post their experiences but in cases of complaints, I agree that the business or person being singled out should have a fair chance of stating their take on the issue. An open dialogue is important here.
That said, of course you don't want a "he said-she said" argument that Pauline reminds us of--But is it a fair representation to only hear one side? Pedalaforte, Marcia and Michael all make very good points.
It is too bad that his e-mails have bounced back but that should not have any bearing on his tour or make him out as "bad". In fact, this just reinforces the idea that one should phone (or write) ahead to confirm an appointment, not rely on e-mail in a country where e-mail is not as highly used as it may be in others. You don't need a cell phone -- just call before you leave your home..just how we all operated before e-mail!
I guess there are plenty of positive feedback on this particular case to allow readers to weigh the pluses and negatives so even if Bea cannot respond he does have representation. Pauline, I guess this is the not so nice part of maintaining a site...it would be great if there was some middle of the road that could be found
I have a copy of the post in my e-mail. If you give me your e-mail address, I'll gladly send you a copy. If you don't want to expose your email address in public, just look at my profile and send it to me in a private message.
Seven wines that retail in the US for an average of $11.00 a glass.
Perhaps this will put in perspective the OP's statement that she found the reduced charge of 20 Euro "still unfair."
I don't want to "nit-pick" but just so you know that while each and every one of the wines we tasted were wonderful (and I DID end up buying four bottles), we did not get anywhere NEAR even half a glass of this very expensive $11.00 a glass wines!!
Pauline is right that the board should not be a place where the business and a person work out theri differences.
The busineses give themselves plenty of positive feedback on their own sites. I think it is a good thing for Dorit to comment on her negative experiences, just as it would be for other individuals to post about their great ones. We should hear about negative and positive experiences from INDIVIDUALS.
Let the winery make their excuses to Dorit. They could offer her a free case of whatever and she can report to us about in the end, the winery made it all up to her, despite what happened.
Posts: 3681 | Location: St Paul, MN | Registered: 10 February 2006
dragonpat - Here Here !!! And if they DO actually send me a case of anything, you are invited to drink it with me!!! (Fat chance by the way, as they have not even answered any of my mails or even the fax I sent!!!). But..... one can dream right??
I don't think someone should be allowed to start a thread slamming a business or giving it a negative review. I think reviews should only be allowed in the review section - period. Isn't that why the review section exists?
I find it unfair that someone can post something so negative about a person or business and that the person being vilified cannot then at least respectfully comment in like, which it appears he did. I think it makes Slow Travel look incredibly one sided.
I'm not a fan of people turning to this community to settle their bad business dealings for them and it seems to be happening more and more. In my opinion that is what has taken place here.
I am obviously not alone in feeling this way. That said, I am merely a member and I appreciate that the people who run ST will do as they wish and these are their decisions to make. I imagine that this is not always an easy task.
Pauline is right that the board should not be a place where the business and a person work out theri differences.
I have to agree with this statement and I think we have already seen some "he said she said" back and forth.
That being said, I think that Kathy (teachick) may have hit on the perfect solution and that is to write about a negative experience in the review section only. Though I guess we really don't have a review section for tours-maybe we should?
I hope my glowing write-up of my experience there (written as a postcard, not on the message board) didn't raise the level of expectation unreasonably high. But it really was one of the highlights of my trip to Umbria.
I think, after reading this and other posts, that I would hesitate to post something negative about an organization. I might still post something, but I would think carefully about how it was worded. The title of this post that says "our disappointing visit to..." seems fair and not accusing, but some people probably read it as a slam against the winery.
It's really tough to convey criticism, and I appreciate those who have tried to on this forum in an effort to educate and warn fellow travelers. Perhaps we should try to keep the criticism general and constructive so that it works with the policies of this board. If it works for Chowhound, it should work for Slow Travel, too!
Originally posted by teachick: I don't think someone should be allowed to start a thread slamming a business or giving it a negative review. I think reviews should only be allowed in the review section - period. Isn't that why the review section exists?
I have not slammed any business. The review I gave was truthful and factual. Before posting both my VERY positive highlight of our trip AND our one disappointment, I privately requested from one of the moderators to let me know where on the review board I could post. She told me that as of now there is nowhere to do this (like there are hotel reviews or restaurant reviews) and suggested it may be OK to post as a postcard but she was not sure. I decided, and she also inferred, that it may not be. So this was the only place I had to post about it.
quote:
Originally posted by teachick: I find it unfair that someone can post something so negative about a person or business and that the person being vilified cannot then at least respectfully comment in like, which it appears he did. I think it makes Slow Travel look incredibly one sided.
I'm not a fan of people turning to this community to settle their bad business dealings for them and it seems to be happening more and more. In my opinion that is what has taken place here.
I have never tried or alluded to trying to settle anything on this board between myself and the winery. In fact I have e-mailed several times to the winery and even faxed them without any response to them. I would never disregard the rules of this board in order to do something like that.
Colleen - as I wrote above, there was really no other place on this board for me to write about my experience.
You, and others, who wrote about your lovely experiences and fantastic time at Paolo Bea were part of the reason I chose to go there. I am sure that it WAS the highlight of your trip. As the cooking class we took at Malvarina was the highlight of OUR trip. I hold no hard feelings for anyone who glows about their wonderful experiences anywhere and then others who follow do not have the same experience. That is just life.
{ fixing quote }
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Pauline,
Thank you Dorit for posting your experience. If this site doesn't post the bad with the good, what value is it? How about the "great pottery flap?" I have read with interest all the postings on this and, frankly, Mr. Bea's responce/excuse sounds a lot like "the dog ate my homework." Maybe he got the emails and faxes, maybe not. Once a confirmation is received from a business a followup phone call to reconfirm should not be necessary. Italy is not a third world country. Maybe he runs a slipshod operation, maybe its a "fell through the cracks" thing. I think we can all read Dorit's experience, I do not assume she is lying, and we can read Mr. Bea's answer and draw our own conclusions. It would be terrible and a great diservice to all members if negative experiences were excluded and only "amazing" ones were allowed.
Originally posted by teachick: I don't think someone should be allowed to start a thread slamming a business or giving it a negative review. I think reviews should only be allowed in the review section - period. Isn't that why the review section exists?
We do not have a review section for tours, tour guides, cooking classes etc. so we ask people to post on the board, write a postcard for the site or include their reviews in their trip reports. After all the positive discussion about this winery on this board, I think it was fair that Dorit post about her negative experience.
Oh dear, I see that my previous post did not post properly because my remarks came in between the quoted post from teachick. I hope it was understood what part was my answer and what was her original message
jdhflyer - oh you are welcome and thank you for your support. Most people have been more than supportive and the mods have been super great. I really appreciate it. That said, I REALLLLLLLLY don't know if I will ever want to post a negative, albeit polite and gracious, experience here again
We're in the middle of a similiar 'discussion' over on the Expats site. Someone asked for opinions about a webiste that features houses for sale (in Italy), and I gave my opinion, then sent a PM to the poster with more specific details. When other posters asked me to post the details, I did....then I was critisized for complaining about something that happened several years ago and basically told to 'get over it'. I responded that I was merely responding to the requests for opinions and details.....
If we can't share the bad experiences along with the good ones, what's the point of this community? Yes, the experience at the winery was ONE experience, countered by several other glowing reports....leaving people free to form their own opinions, or at least be forewarned.
As for not allowing the business to reply...that's a tough one! Good points have been made by both sides, but in the end of course the owners/moderators have the final say, for better or worse.
I am glad that Dorit pointed out that those 'tastings' weren't exactly equal to a full $11 glass of wine!
And Dorit, as one who has posted the lone bad review amidst many good ones, I understand your feelings completely. You, like us, went expecting nothing but the best...you had no axe to grind, no reason to think your experience would be less than wonderful.....next time you're in Umbria let us know and we'll take you to a few of our favorite wineries!
Slow Travel Talk 
And if they DO actually send me a case of anything, you are invited to drink it with me!!! (Fat chance by the way, as they have not even answered any of my mails or even the fax I sent!!!). But..... one can dream right?? 
But it really was one of the highlights of my trip to Umbria.
