Then the reviewer comes back and posts that a satisfactory result has been reached.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
I have sat on my hands, bitten my tongue (ouch) and have gotten up uncountable times from my computer in an attempt not to post on this thread. It has brought up so many emotions and thoughts that I have lost count. So many people I respect have posted conflicting views on this issues. Well, I suppose I have decided to join the fray, for what its worth, with my colleages: the Slow Travel family of small business who actively, financially and intellectually support the website and message board.
Actively, because darn, we post alot.
Financially, because we buy classified ads and memberships and are therefore Slow Travel and Slow Talk Customers.
Intellectually because many of us contribute alot of information from which we receive no direct benefit, but which enriches the content of both the main website and the message board.
I have expressed, actually in person to a moderator who I very much respect, that one of the risks of being a very active member who supplies a service, is that one day, someone may come up my hill, and will feel that all of the accolades which I have received as a service provider are exaggerated and uncalled for. We (and while I speak only for Baur B&B, I trust this is true for many of my ST service provider colleages) work extra hard when there is an ST person coming up our driveway. We don't know the lurkers, but we know the members, and I have had many a restless night hoping that I would cut the mustard and live up to my own reputation, which I myself feel is sometimes overstated by my lovely guests.
If someone, a lurker, a member, anyone were to come on this board after being here, and in a constructive / non constructive / whatever way critique their stay, and I would not be able to respond in kind?
Hmmmmm. It would be a very, very painful thing for me. I would feel that my voice, which should be respected, had been taken away.
I know I would make the effort to contact the person and offer some kind of compensation for their unhappiness.
Are they required to come back on the board and say, oh Diana sent me a bottle of Brachetto and so everything is fine? Um, no. And even if said person did come back and post something banal like that, does it make everything better? Of course it doesn't.
Does said person have the right to critique my business? Yes. Should I have the right to express what other consumers might see as an appropriate attempt to right the situation?
For gosh sake, I feel I should be REQUIRED to rspond!!!
By taking away my voice, you are taking away the only tool I have to really salvage a reputation for which we have worked very hard.
And if Slow Travel were to give me the right to respond on behalf of my business, then even the businesses who do not have ads (but still enrich the site indirectly by being the fodder of discussion, by being destinations which members visit, suggest, an visit again) must also be given the right.
One more point before I take a valium and calm down.
Italian customer service is and always will be different than customer service American Style. We are all savvy enough to know this. If someone hits me with a critique, my response is, oh GOD what can I do to make this right? How can I make you happy? I have this reaction because I was raised in the US, have a degree in Marketing and have been in the service sector for way too many years. Italians, who were not raised in the same type of service culture, do not automatically accept the blame when something goes wrong. Because we are Americans, we expect, Sorry!! And when an Italian gives you what amounts to, hey, no I don't think you were treated all that badly, we get really, well annoyed! I know this, because I live it every day. I am not defending Bea's reaction, what I remember of it before it was cut out of this thread, I am saying it was fairly consistent with Italian customer service practice, no better no worse.
But with all respect to all of you who work so hard to make this message board work so well, I can not tell you how emphatically I disagree with this policy. I say it with a heavy heart, but with a clear mind. Let us respond to our critics and show what we are really made of.
Originally posted by Kim: I was wondering, if I would feel the same if it was one of our regular contributors who had received that negative feedback. I don't know. I think part of the issue is when owner's join specifically to reply to the criticism, and then disappear again. They're not members; they don't contribute - they just come to defend or discredit and that bothers me, personally, much more than if it had been one of our regular contributors.
But in either case, in my mind, the ideal situation would be, the negative review gets posted. The business contacts the reviewer and says, "we're sorry you feel this way. Here's what we thought/think about the situatio?" And either "What can we do to rectify it or here's what we're willing to do to rectify it." Then the reviewer comes back and posts that a satisfactory result has been reached.
Maybe I am naive, but I think that's how it should work, and I'd be much more likely to patronize a business like that than one that just says, "Tough, not our fault."
I don't run a business, so this aspect of the policy doesn't directly affect me the way it does for Diana and others. But I would hope that if, for some strange reason, one of our regular contributors' business was criticized, that the moderators would evaluate the situation and allow some sort of response by the owner - perhaps indirectly if need be. I think it's the sort of thing that has to be judged on a case by case basis. So you can't really write a policy to cover every conceivable instance. But that's why we have moderators on this forum - to make judgement calls, when needed.
After reading the original post – and only the original post – these are the complaints I saw that Dorit had – a. The original guide was replaced by a guide who did not speak adequate English to suit her. b. The guide did not take her to see the vineyards, because he did not understand her – basically a repeat of complaint “a”. c. She did not care for the food she was served at the wine tasting. d. The tour and tasting lasted ONLY 1.5 hours
And because of the above, she felt she should have received a free tour because her expectations were not met.
Am I missing something here? Are these really and truly serious enough complaints to justify the length and depth of this discussion?
What I truly do not understand is what I said in my earlier post as to why anyone would make the comment -
quote:
However, if you get onto a search engine such as yahoo or google now, one of the first hits is my message here. This means that OTHER people who may be interested in visiting this winery will get the whole picture. And this is part of what my intentions were.
I think we should all proceed with caution in forming conclusions from one person’s mishap. To try to destroy a person or business using a quality site such as Slow Talk is just not right.
I totally agree with Micheal's question -
quote:
So who is to say that disallowing the business from posting is an act of consumer advocacy?
Diana - I could not agree with you more! A very well-considered and thoughtful reply. You have earned your relaxation, but instead of a valium I would suggest you uncork a Bea Sagrantino and toast to us all!
Most of the discussion now is more about Slowtrav Forum Rules. The Bea post was just the impetus which got the ball rolling.
Hence, Pauline, in her infinite wisdom, has the very sensible idea to separate the two discussions. As I have no idea who either Dorit or Bea are, I'll see you all over in the "How to" section.
But before going, I'll leave you all with just one last thought:
This whole incident could have been avoided if people would just face up to the fact that Italian wines are OK with a plate of pasta and a bit of gelato, but if you want to do some serious drinking,
Already Dorit was being jumped on for complaining about a business
quote:
Heck the beating Dorit took on this message board from posters who may or may not have ever been to Bea or who may or may not have small businesses of their own, and therefore may fear giving consumers a voice, and from posters who have never been to Bea and who's motives (or lack there of) for diving into this fray confound me,
quote:
all I can say is I feel a profound sense of disappointment and sadness with the way I believe Dorit was treated by many here; the sense that some tried to gang up on her for sharing her experience
After so many references to the way the original poster was "jumped on," ganged-up on and generally mistreated, I re-read the entire thread, thinking that I must have missed something. How could I have overlooked the "many" posts attacking Dorit so rudely for reporting a negative experience?
You know what? I couldn't find them. I did find, early in the thread, expressions of sympathy for Dorit, coupled with surprise since some of the posters had had great experiences with the same winery. As far as I can tell, nobody attacked Dorit for filing a negative report, but the business owner was beaten up pretty thoroughly (justifiably, as far as I can tell).
In fact, the subject pretty quickly shifted from Dorit's report to a debate over Slowtalk's policy of forbidding businesses the right to respond to negative reviews. That's when the heat was generated, and some moderators seem to have slipped unknowingly into a defensive mode. One result, illogically, was the claim that people were picking on a member for filing a negative report.
Just for the record, I have never owned a business, large or small, so I don't fall into the category of those who fear "giving consumers a voice." I confess, however, to never visiting Bea winery, so perhaps one could question my "motives (or lack there of) for diving into this fray."
It's simple, really: I think everyone is better served when we hear all sides of an issue--even one as simple as this one. And if I publicly criticize a business, I don't mind if they publicly give their side.
Posts: 215 | Location: Spokane | Registered: 10 June 2002
For gosh sake, I feel I should be REQUIRED to rspond!!!
Me too Diana, it shows we care!!! This is without doubt the best response that I have seen on a thread.
Slow Travel owners, moderators "et al" please take it on board and review your sad new rule.
Diana, you also said - "By taking away my voice, you are taking away the only tool I have to really salvage a reputation for which we have worked very hard".
100% agreee!!!!
And to quote you again! "the Slow Travel family of small business who actively, financially and intellectually support the website and message board.
Actively, because darn, we post alot.
Financially, because we buy classified ads and memberships and are therefore Slow Travel and Slow Talk Customers"
This is the hardest thing to swallow - we post a lot because we love our countries - but what seems to be absent in this thread is the following - Slow travel IS a business!!! It is charging us to advertise on the site - it is full of "Google ads" etc. We advertisers ARE members too!!!
I vote for a change in the rules! Please back me on this one!! We ALL have the right to post!
I was thinking of you during this discussion and had hoped you'd post your views.
I agree that a separate section for reviews of tours should be created. I have been thinking the very same thing.
"However, if you get onto a search engine such as yahoo or google now, one of the first hits is my message here. This means that OTHER people who may be interested in visiting this winery will get the whole picture. And this is part of what my intentions were."
And I do not believe that this was a simple negative review. Sorry, but the comment above telling us that this negative review was showing up first on Yahoo and Google tells me someone wanted retribution. The "whole picture" would include Bea's response and the chance for him to defend himself. I do believe this sat poorly with others here as well.
And I have a solidly unbiased and objective opinion here as:
A) I do not have a personal relationship of any kind with the original poster
B) I have never been to Bea and have no plans to do so in the future.
I do hope a section is created for these kinds of reviews whether they be positive or negative. I also hope in the future if these things end up being posted in this manner the business does, in fact, have a chance to explain and or defend themselves.
I wanted to add that on Trip Adviser business owners can ALWAYS respond to reviews (and several of my friends who have owned small hotels and B&B's have done so). It is one of the reasons I post reviews there. I find it very fair and balanced.
Dorit has no control over Google indexing. If her thread comes up high in a search it's a bonus for her, IMO, because apparently Mr. Bea was unwilling to respond to her private communications (plural) trying to resolve this issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill & Patty Sutherland: I think we should all proceed with caution in forming conclusions from one person's mishap. To try to destroy a person or business using a quality site such as Slow Talk is just not right.
I understand that Bill & Patty run a business, and I get that they have a monetary interest in only positive comments coming from consumers. HOWEVER. To suggest that it was Dorit's intention to destroy a business by posting about her experience on SlowTalk?? *That* is just not right.
SlowTrav and the forums were started with the idea that here you can find *honest* reviews and information. We are pro-consumer sites. I recently wrote a review of a vacation rental in France; it did not include a recommendation to stay there under current conditions. My intention was to warn the next person who considers it, that they can expect X, Y & Z.
You want to blame me because it comes up high on an Internet search?? Go ahead. I KNOW what I lived with for four days, and if someone else thinks twice before renting or asks the owners some pointed questions because of what I wrote, then good for them.
Posts: 14265 | Location: The Beautiful San Francisco Bay Area | Registered: 06 August 2001
I have expressed, actually in person to a moderator who I very much respect, that one of the risks of being a very active member who supplies a service, is that one day, someone may come up my hill, and will feel that all of the accolades which I have received as a service provider are exaggerated and uncalled for.
Diana thank you for the courage. I have been close to the above a few times. I can copy everything you said and put my name under it. Thank you for expressing it a million times better than I could (in a foreign language).
I do hope a section is created for these kinds of reviews whether they be positive or negative.
Can someone please explain to me why this matters? Seriously? I don't get the difference? Really, really curious about this one.
Diana, very good response (and I'm going to hijack the thread a bit here because I've been wondering about this too), in this statement:
quote:
We (and while I speak only for Baur B&B, I trust this is true for many of my ST service provider colleages) work extra hard when there is an ST person coming up our driveway. We don't know the lurkers, but we know the members, and I have had many a restless night hoping that I would cut the mustard and live up to my own reputation, which I myself feel is sometimes overstated by my lovely guests.
What does happen because I think that was exactly the case in the original thread.
Certain people perhaps got exceptional service, and posted about their experiences as normal - then someone else, comes along expecting that same service and didn't receive it. And I think she wants others to know, that the level of service she received didn't match what was already out there on the web.
So my question is if you give Slow Travelers you know a certain level of service, and they come back here, and report about that, don't/won't lurkers expect the same service? And because their expectations are set in a certain way, if you don't know that, you constantly run the risk of disappointment with them? And if that happens, you run the risk, that someday, you're going to be in this same position no?
So I guess I'm wondering, how do you handle that? How do you set expectations for your, lack of the correct word, average customer, will receive, or do you just have to treat everyone like their a slowtrav (or use some other travel site if you will) member? And lets say it's a simple case of expectations not being met, and someone is disappointed, comes here and says, this is what I got, and it wasn't what you all said it was going to be so I thought you and others who look to stay here/tour here, etc. should know. Are they wrong?
So my question is if you give Slow Travelers you know a certain level of service, and they come back here, and report about that, don't/won't lurkers expect the same service? And because their expectations are set in a certain way, if you don't know that, you constantly run the risk of disappointment with them?
Yes. The risk is always there. The bar is set very high. That is the price of marketing a business on the Web and becoming part of a community like ST. It does not worry or scare me. But the bar is set very high. I want people to feel like their stay is individual because it is. We try to treat everyone individually, with sensitivity to their needs, and interact with them in a way which is appropriate to their needs.
quote:
So I guess I'm wondering, how do you handle that? How do you set expectations for your, lack of the correct word, average customer, will receive, or do you just have to treat everyone like their a slowtrav (or use some other travel site if you will) member?
THis is exactly what we try to do. We try to fulfill expectations the best we can, but sometimes, quite honestly, it is hard to know exactly what the expectations are. We overcome this by trying to always deliver a consistently high quality level of service for everyone.
We are no different than our ST service provider colleagues in this way. All of us who value the repeat business which ST guests provide are very concerned about making sure that expectations are met. And in order to do this, we need to provide that service level for all of our guests, because sometimes, we don't know until day three or four of a stay that someone found us on ST.
I have come to the conclusion that everyone loves being treated as an individual, and that is the tactic we take, ST guest or not.
quote:
And lets say it's a simple case of expectations not being met, and someone is disappointed, comes here and says, this is what I got, and it wasn't what you all said it was going to be so I thought you and others who look to stay here/tour here, etc. should know. Are they wrong?
No, Kim, they would not be wrong. But I, as the service provider, should have the right to respond to that person in this public forum and explain my side of what might be simply a difference of opinion of what is included in a stay at this B&B.
That being said, I cannot imagine that I would not go through just about all lengths to correct the situation behind the scenes. But I think that it is fair that the situation be explained, from my side, in this forum, so that consumers can be informed of the complete story.
OK, I've been off the boards this evening and when I get back I see there have been quite a slew of messages, etc. I am not even sure that my posting in this part here is correct (or should it actually be in the original thread?).
In any case, since so many of you are enjoying making lists, I think I will share one of my own. Here is my very last one to all :
1) I do not own a business, small or otherwise, but I am also a regular contributor to this board, sending mostly positive reviews (I think I only had one negative review of a restaurant now while in Umbria). And I have posted trip reports of three marvelous trips to Italy over the past year.
2) I just happened to see the other day that it was just a year that I joined ST and never realized what a ruckus a negative review could cause here.
3) For those who wrote they do not know who Dorit or Bea are, I can tell you that Dorit is the poster decribed in section 1) and 2) above. There are others here who know Dorit on a more personal and intimate level but for everyone else, for the purposes of chatter and sharing information on this board, this is all you need to know. I cannot tell you who is Bea because I never did get to meet him. Maybe someone else will be able to better fill you in.
4) Dorit did not slam or rant about Bea and his business. Her intention never was to put him out of business (how on earth could one person do that now really?). Her only intention was to give a fair and just account of her experience. Too bad that you don't "agree" with it, you were not asked to agree with a review. You may take it for what it is worth, you may decide that since you personally had a great experience you will not give it any credence. Or you can place it in the back of your mind for any time you may happen to be in the area and want to do a tour. It may or may not give you pause. That is all that was intended. Had I read beforehand of other people's negative impressions, I would have had a better picture to be able to decide FOR MYSELF whether I wanted to take this tour or not. But I guess after the attitudes here to negative reviews that have been expressed, probably no one here ever will give another negative review (I know I WON'T). That is really too bad because you will all lose out because of that.
5) I think a lot of people here have missed a very crucial point. And that is that it is very clear to all posting here that Mr. Bea is well aware of my gripe, he was aware enough to make sure he sent a long letter to Pauline by e-mail saying how appalled he was by my starting this thread here. But then he continued to completely ignore all e-mails sent to him, both by myself and by Pauline PLUS a fax which was also sent by me. There are many ways he could have brought himself to communicate, preferably directly with me, but he could also have through Pauline. He CHOSE not to. THAT is the gripe here folks.
NOT that I was not pleased with how much, or little, food was offered. NOT that I needed to take the tour with an English Lit Professor from Harvard. NOT that the tour was shorter than what was expected. And certainly not that I expect American-type service and compensation from Italian merchants.
If you read section 1) above carefully, you will notice that I have visited Italy THREE times in the past year, loving each trip immensely and never having a negative experience. My love for Italy, her people, culture, food/wine and EVERYTHING Italian is not fly-by-night. It has been there for over 30 years and will stay with me NO MATTER WHAT.
I do hope a section is created for these kinds of reviews whether they be positive or negative. Can someone please explain to me why this matters? Seriously? I don't get the difference? Really, really curious about this one.
The difference is that many more people will click on a message on the message board entitled "Our Disappointing [Experience with] You Name It" than will click on a review listed under "You Name It" because only people interested in You Name It will *find* the review in the first place.
Many more people clicking on the message leads to its prominence on Yahoo or Google or whatever.
It would seem that Pauline realized that the flurry of messages about allowing business owners to post or not was becoming detrimental (I could have used a stronger word...) to the winery in question and disassociated the business-owner discussion from the winery discussion.
I'd also like to add that we truly appreciate the thoughtful nature of this dialogue, with most people trying to listen to other points of view and reasoning behind their positions.
We're listening, really.
I'd also really like to encourage more of those of you not in the travel business to weigh in on this issue.
Slow Travel Talk 
