On the Italy page there is a topic discussing prices in Tuscany which seems to be getting somewhat confused but one response does raise an interesting general question.

You go into a restaurant and enjoy a great meal and give the waiter your credit card to settle the account and are then told that the machine is out of order and they can only accept cash!

You don't have enough cash. What are the legal ramifications?

[Edited to correct spelling in subject]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Roz,

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You go into a restaurant and enjoy a great meal and give the waiter your credit card to settle the account and are then told that the machine is out of order and they can only accept cash!

I have had this happen to me repeatedly in Italy. Every time I barely had enough cash to pay. One time I had to invade my cash stash I hid under the inserts in my shoe to pay the bill. The waiter did not like how wrinkled the bills were, and wanted me to go to a bank and exchange them for new bills. Maybe I should have pretended to do that and skipped out on paying the bill altogether, but I told him that "money is money" and got him to take it.

I had thought that maybe they would release you to go to an ATM it you left your traveling companion with them.

I am about 99% sure that they do this becasue they discontinued their VISA service, and still have the sticker on the door. You even ask them before you sit down and they tell you that they "take" VISA. One restaurant did this twice to me, and after that I never went there again.

All I know is that if they really had VISA service they could charge your card even if the machine is "broken" by using your number alone. The takeout delivery people in my daughter's college town did not travel around with a machine to charge purchases; they used a pencil and the 3 part VISA form with the card inserted between the carbons and rubbed over the surface to make the impression.
The car repair garage in my daughter's distant state where she goes to college took my VISA number over the phone to pay for her car repair. I have thought about suggesting that next time the machine is "broken".

They might use the excuse that the computer can't check to see if your card is stolen and that they can't trust that it isn't. Trust is a two way street. They should trust you and charge your card jsut using the number, if it is really a situation caused by their machine and service malfunctioning. I'll bet that 99% of the time this is not the situation. In stores where this happens I jsut put the merchandise back, but with with food that is eaten, this is not a possibility.

I never go back to restaurants with "broken" machine anymore.

I can understand the frustration of having a scam like this pulled on you, but given the fact that most Italian credit card machines require use of a telephone land line to complete a transaction, and the reputed lack of relaibility of the land lines, (other than repeated instances, perhaps) how can you distinguish between being the victim of a scam and a legitimate problem running the card through?

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Originally posted by dragonpat:


All I know is that if they really had VISA service they could charge your card even if the machine is "broken" by using your number alone. The takeout delivery people in my daughter's college town did not travel around with a machine to charge purchases; they used a pencil and the 3 part VISA form with the card inserted between the carbons and rubbed over the surface to make the impression.
The car repair garage in my daughter's distant state where she goes to college took my VISA number over the phone to pay for her car repair. I have thought about suggesting that next time the machine is "broken".

I haven't seen a paper card swiper in a long time. In Canada pizza guys and even some cabbies have swipe machines.

Can they take your number over the phone? Sure. My expierence for international purchases they want me to fax both sides of the card and submit the three digit security number.

If shops don't take reasonable care and it's a stolen card they get stuck with the bill. That means if they have any doubt or problem they'll likely refuse the card. So phone line down. Signature looking funny. Whatever. That all doubles when it's a non-local card.

OTOH considering how badly Visa/MC gouge small shops it's kind of cruel to ask a shop to take a card for small purchases.

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Originally posted by dragonpat:
All I know is that if they really had VISA service they could charge your card even if the machine is "broken" by using your number alone. The takeout delivery people in my daughter's college town did not travel around with a machine to charge purchases; they used a pencil and the 3 part VISA form with the card inserted between the carbons and rubbed over the surface to make the impression.
The car repair garage in my daughter's distant state where she goes to college took my VISA number over the phone to pay for her car repair. I have thought about suggesting that next time the machine is "broken".

You can't expect for things to work in Italy the same way they work in the USA.

The 'machine is broken' scenario has happened to me, many times in Sicily. I pay with cash and ask for an official receipt. I don’t make a big fuss about it maybe because I've come to expect things like this to happen when I'm traveling.

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how can you distinguish between being the victim of a scam and a legitimate problem running the card through?

Asking for an official receipt (scontrino/ricevuta fiscale) ?

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how can you distinguish between being the victim of a scam and a legitimate problem running the card through?

I was unaware of this being a common scam until it happened twice in a row at a restaurant that happened to be in a convenient location near termini. Now I don't go there anymore and I am suspicious everytime I hear how the machine is "broken". I am especially angry if I have already asked if VISA is OK. Luckly my expenses have not exceeded my hidden shoe money, because I mostly don't eat at very expensive places.

As has been said before, phone lines for credit cards do go down a lot in Italy. Just think about how many times you try to use an ATM machine and the system says there is no line to the bank (this happens very frequently). By continuing to call this a scam though I find that some are perpetrating one of the great urban legends of Italy. Credit card receiving here does not work like it does in the US for example and you have to accept the differences instead of complaining that it is a scam.

I do not beleive myself that this is an urban legend for several reasons. if it was problem with the phone lines, it should be happening with all merchants, and all the restaurants.

I frequently use my credit card. The "machine is broken" happens infrequently at merchants. In fact at some restaurants that i happen to go to a lot when I am in Italy, it never happens at all during a 2 week period with sometimes as many as 5 visits to a single restaurant. Some restaurants in rome I have visited on more than one trip to Rome and over a period of 3 years, it never happens. But then one happens to be in different section of the city and you go to a restaurant for the first time and bingo after dinner, the "machine is broken".

The fact that it happens only at certain kinds of credit charging places (ie restaurants), probably because the food cannot be returned after being eaten, and how it never happens at certain restaurants (more honest ones), seems too much like coincidence to be an urban legend.

So the clerk at the post office yesterday lied to me when she said the computer link was down? Maybe she just wanted to have me come back and see her later in the day? A boy can hope

Thanks Roz for fixing my spelling error.

I am NOT trying to suggest that there is a scam going on here or that the question is aimed at Italy only. It applies world wide. In some cases there may be a scam but that is not the point.

If you are NOT told before your meal that they cannot take a credit card and afterwards say cash only, because a card is an acceptable legal form of payment what is your obligation to pay in cash. There has to be an option if the card machine is not working - in some cases you have the older paper card swiper. Legally do you have to pay in cash and what happens if you do not have enough?

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Originally posted by dragonpat:
I do not beleive myself that this is an urban legend for several reasons. if it was problem with the phone lines, it should be happening with all merchants, and all the restaurants.

I frequently use my credit card. The "machine is broken" happens infrequently at merchants. In fact at some restaurants that i happen to go to a lot when I am in Italy, it never happens at all during a 2 week period with sometimes as many as 5 visits to a single restaurant. Some restaurants in rome I have visited on more than one trip to Rome and over a period of 3 years, it never happens. But then one happens to be in different section of the city and you go to a restaurant for the first time and bingo after dinner, the "machine is broken".

The fact that it happens only at certain kinds of credit charging places (ie restaurants), probably because the food cannot be returned after being eaten, and how it never happens at certain restaurants (more honest ones), seems too much like coincidence to be an urban legend.

As I have lived here for 14 years and frequently use my US credit card for purchases, ATM withdrawls and meals, I find it hard to believe that it only happens in restaurants to you. It happens at ATM machines, it happens in restaurants, normally in the evening and it happens in shops, normally around noontime which is when the banks in the US seem to all go offline for a bit. I have been to restaurants when the owner has told me the credit card machine was not working, I said I would go get cash at the ATM and his response was to come back the next day and I could pay with the credit card as when the machines are down in the restaurant, they are normally down at the ATMs as well.

You have had bad luck pat but again, calling it a scam when you do not understand how things work in Italy (again, to drive in the point, I live here and have worked in restaurants, hotels etc. so do know what I am speaking of) is not doing a service for anyone.

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You have had bad luck pat but again, calling it a scam when you do not understand how things work in Italy (again, to drive in the point, I live here and have worked in restaurants, hotels etc. so do know what I am speaking of) is not doing a service for anyone.

I am not trying to do a service to anyone, except relating the truth as I see it and letting other know about it so that thet can plan accordingly. I think about my anecdotal experiences and analyze my experiences in terms of how often something is happening and whether it could be just a coincidence. I preface my conclusions with "I believe that ..." Based on the data I have to date, I still believe that I have been scammed. if other tourists realize that they are not alone, in what is happening to them, they might do the same thing: keep enough cash for their bill in case of emergencies, but chose not to return to the restaurant with the "broken" machine.

You speak fluent Italian and are regarded as an Italian by the restaurant owners. The would be less likely to pull as fast one on you about the "machine is broken". English speakers could be marked by owners as tourists, and targeted as not knowing any better. this might be why you have not experienced being scammed and the machine might really be down. I doubt the the restaurant owner would let an obvious tourist like myself return the next day to pay for my meal. Some rental agency scam tourists in different ways by using bait and switch techniques. I believe that I was scammed by one of them also, even thoug I do not have copious personal experience with that agency, jsut what I know happened to me and what I have read about what happened in Slow travel reviews and other places on the web. Some locals count on being able to scam tourists because the tourists will have left the country before any complaint would be dealt with by the legal system.

Only once has my card not worked at a shop with merchandise. I left without the merchandise, went to an ATM, got my money and bought about half of what I originally was going to buy. I have had some trouble with ATMs. Once in Sorrento, none of the ATMs would issue me any money for about the last half of my vacation. I had only a single ATM card at the time. My credit cards were working fine all the time though on that trip. In Rome several banks ATMs would not dispense cash to me, but I went to different bank, and there was no problem there. The key here is no one benefits from ATM not working.

The "machine is broken" in restaurants has happened about half the time at the end of Italian lunch AT 3 pm. This doesn't appear to be one of this windows that you have mentioned.

I guess you are right about me not understanding about how things in Italy work. i didn't realize that you cannot charge a credit card in Italy by jsut putting the numbers in like in the US. Other than the restaurant letting you leave to go to an ATM, I am not sure what one would do if you really didn't have enough money to pay the bill with you.

In the last couple of years, I have noticed that I am paying in cash almost 100% of the time (except for big purchases, i.e. at least a couple of thousand euros) when we travel outside of the U.S. I find it to be less hassle and a lot cheaper. My ATM, however, gets a lot of use.

The reason: our bank gives market rate with absolutely no fees for ATM withdrawals. Credit card usage is at least 1% fee if not more. I do make sure that we have the money in our account before we travel. Besides, I don't believe in going into debt for travel.

In the U.S., I almost always pay by credit card because it does not cost me anything and so easy.

This works for us. It does not work for everyone.

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Credit card usage is at least 1% fee if not more

Most cards do have the foreign transaction fees...but Capital One still doesn't impose any fee. I don't know how long this will continue...their recent financial statements have not been too positive.

Forgive me, but as Cristina points out, non functioning machines in Italy is not directed at you. I have been in the USA when "lines are down" and I have to wait to pay.

Besides, you say you don't eat at such expensive restaurants, so why don't you just expect to pay in cash and forget it. I can't see this as such a hardship. I mean such hostility and insinuation that shopkeepers are targeting you, the credit card customer. Even in USA, some businesses don't take certain cards because of the fees the card attaches to the restaurant or bar owner. If you don't pay by card, often they will knock off 2-3%. Re: the sticker on the door: maybe they haven't gotten around to peeling it off because they are too busy making pasta by hand for their lunch and dinner cutomers.

Just because the USA is such a credit happy consumer society does not mean the rest of the world is. Italy may be less accustomed to the credit craze.

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I have had trouble with ATMs.

We have been fortunate in not having any problems with ATMs. We spent 8 weeks in Italy, 8 weeks in Switzerland and 3 weeks in Paris in 2007 depending on ATMs for cash. We paid cash for almost everything including our rentals.

We carry 3 ATM cards and they all work. As much as possible, we go to ATMs at banks that are open, just in case.

Getting back to Monty's question...

Sorry, Monty, I don't know what would happen if you did not have enough cash but I'd imagine it would depend on the restaurant. Maybe they would trust you to run to an ATM, maybe not. I try to pay in cash everywhere, even here in the U.S. where credit card use is completely out of control. (All those fees the establishment pays? Who do you think pays them in the end?)

Take enough money to pay, then if you decide to use a credit card and it is possible, use it. But if it is broken, lines are down, whatever - you are still covered. But you probably already knew that. Maybe someone can tell you what the legal ramifications are.

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I try to pay in cash everywhere, even here in the U.S. where credit card use is completely out of control. (All those fees the establishment pays? Who do you think pays them in the end?)

Shannon, I am sure that the establishments are very happy to see customers who pay in cash. My sense is that the prices already include the cost of the credit so when cash is presented, the establishment makes a little additional on the sale.

Of course, that doesn't reflect the cost of handling and depositing the cash, the danger of cash being skimmed and the possibility of robbery....but there are plus and minuses to everything.

Me, I prefer the float and the convenience of credit....

Now if I could get a discount for paying cash instead of the rebate for using my credit card, I might have to reconsider...

I think to actaully call it a scam it would have to end up costing you more money. They may have a real problem or they may be trying to avoid the merchant service fee. Hard to tell. I have never personally ruin into this, but I think it sounds like a good idea to carry enough cash for such occasions and in the future will try to do so.

I recently paid a contractor, who built an outbuilding for me, with a credit card. He had a machine he plugged into a socket and the phone line at my house and swiped my card. He said that if there isn't a phone line the machine will store card info and do a batch transaction when he gets to a line. I am sure there are diffrent machines with different capabilities, but if I lived in an area with spotty phone service I'd look into getting one that could store the info.

jb