Hoping all of you clever types can help analyze the following:
For over 6 years now, I have been going to the same boulangerie almost every morning. Even allowing for the occasional bit of travel away from home and the equally occasional days when I'm a bit lazy (off-season, mind you) - I still would guess that I'm in line at the bakery 250 times a year - which by now gives me enough data points to state that the following observation is more than statistical caprice.
I've observed that the sex of boulangerie patrons changes radically once the tourist season kicks into high gear. Off-season, customers (almost exclusively locals) at the bakery are about evenly split between men and women. But once the tourist throng arrives, the ratio changes radically. At this time of year, it's running about 9 to 1 men vs. women.
So, my questions are:
1) is this effect observable elsewhere ? I'm doubting that it is something particular about St. Saturnin, but without evidence one way or the other, I can't be sure ?
2) for heterogenous couples traveling, who goes to the boulangerie in the morning ? If it is always one or the other, is there a reason why ?
3) Most importantly, can anyone come up with some general explanation for why it is that men seem to take the lead in buying bread in the morning ? And what do we suppose all the missing female companions are doing back in their gites/rentals/apartments/villas ??
Thanks you in advance for your help. I am considering turning this into my masters thesis...
Kevin - you will have to excuse the frivolity of my fellow mods, who clearly do not understand the import of serious research (although Amy SHOULD, as an academic, have given this more thought, IMHO!)
However, I urge you to start your research closer to home -- what are the conditions chez vous that make you the primary pain provider/baguette bearer? Clearly Elizabeth has trained you well -- you need only ask her why and wherefor, and all will be revealed.
But if she is unwilling to shed light, let me just say when I am en vacance, if my DH wants fresh bread or croissants before 10 am, he should not count on me to get up, dressed and presentable for public scrutiny in the early hours...need I say more?
Judy
Posts: 3943 | Location: Berkeley, CA | Registered: 22 March 2005
3) Most importantly, can anyone come up with some general explanation for why it is that men seem to take the lead in buying bread in the morning ? And what do we suppose all the missing female companions are doing back in their gites/rentals/apartments/villas ??
Thanks you in advance for your help. I am considering turning this into my masters thesis...
-Kevin
This isn't obvious?
You are stuck on vacation with the family. You can't just go to work. You can't go into the garage and pretend to fix the car. The lawnmower isn't an option. So when you see the chance to make a break for it you go.
Kevin, how often do you see couples coming in together? When Mike and I travel, we usually go to the boulangerie together, since we both want to review what's on offer and decide what looks best to each of us. Usually we are buying breakfast pastry, not just a baguette.
Answer, let's just say you are indeed an outlyer case. I'd say couples coming in together are no more than 5%. By contrast, I very often see some serious male-bonding going on. Two dads with various kids strangling along, for example...
I have observed, in our family at least, that men are hungrier in the morning than women and they know that if they wait for the girls to be ready they will surely starve so they bravely set forth to get the bread so long as they know the way and don't, God forbid, have to ask for directions from a stranger. The reason, in my opinion for your ratio is the male tummy rumbles louder.
You are stuck on vacation with the family. You can't just go to work. You can't go into the garage and pretend to fix the car. The lawnmower isn't an option. So when you see the chance to make a break for it you go.
Nick z,
I love this!
Denise
Posts: 346 | Location: Central California | Registered: 12 February 2006
The lady takes longer to shower, makeup and dress in the morning. The gentleman is hungry, so he goes in search of food and gives the lady her space. The lady thinks he's chivalrous and gushes over the delivery of such delicious goods and feels pampered. The rewards are satisfying to the tummy and the relationship.
You are stuck on vacation with the family. You can't just go to work. You can't go into the garage and pretend to fix the car. The lawnmower isn't an option. So when you see the chance to make a break for it you go.
Although I agree with most of what Nick has posted, I have to say I think (hope) most men love their families and are not trying to "Make a break for it".
What men really hate is answering questions/making decisions. This is why men always say "Pardon?" when you ask them a question - it gives them thinking time! When at home they have a safe routine to follow work/garage/lawn but on vacation there are decisions to be made each day. So rather than have to answer the morning vacation question "What would you like to do today?" they go to the boulangerie. It is safe - they know the answer to the only question they will be asked there - "Un baguette s'il vous plaît"
Roz has removed this safety line from Mike because she also wants a pastry!
Originally posted by DefiningYourHome: The lady takes longer to shower, makeup and dress in the morning. The gentleman is hungry, so he goes in search of food and gives the lady her space.
In total agreement with this AND Amy's comment.
I have often thought that it would be nice to go along and check out the selection myself, but I am just unable to get myself ready to go out before his desire for a cornetto propels him to the Campo bakery.
Also, when I DO go out I plan on staying out, whereas my husband loves this in and out, back and forth stuff.
Posts: 922 | Location: Simi Valley, California | Registered: 20 March 2002
I would only assume that once they are out of their natural habitat, the male of the species reverts to his original hunter/gatherer instincts - which allows the female of the species to lollygag in bed or lounge on the patio after he has asked, "well what can I do NOW?" (and she directs him to the nearest bakery)
Don't discount the language angle, and willingness to endure public humiliation.
My French proficiency is essentially zero. As soon as I cross the border from Italy, I feel as though I've been hit in the head with a brick. I feel confused, as though I should understand, but don't, and this renders me entirely tongue-tied. I then revert to mute gesturing and helpless hand wringing.
My husband, on the other hand, will cheerfully order pastries in basic French (I assume it's basic French, but then I wouldn't know) and charmingly smile away any incredulous looks about his accent or oddball word choices. He also usually orders enough to feed a small army, further delighting the counter clerks.
No matter where we travel Art can always sniff out the bakery! Perhaps men just have better noses for the subtle aromas of fresh bread a pastries? I'm the breakfast eater in our family and as long as Art has a cup of coffee he's okay until lunch - unless of course he happens upon a bakery, then he's helpless to resist!
I havn't been to France much (those days were half in refugios on a multiday hike) but I can't say that regarless of where we are I sleep at least 2 hours less than Peg (currently 5am here and I'm awake before the alarm). No way can I sleep that much. so I gererally not only go out but I eat breakfast and do whatever, go running etc. Then later join her for breakfast.
Tommorow Peru. Example- first full day Monday I am being met at 6:45 am driving 30 minutes to outside of Chinchero then hiking for 6-7 hours. Peg will be vegging all day acclimitizing. RR
If it works as in our family, since I do that all year round, when we are on holiday, I want to be "servita e riverita", literally meaning "served and honoured"
Originally posted by Debrah: I would only assume that once they are out of their natural habitat, the male of the species reverts to his original hunter/gatherer instincts - which allows the female of the species to lollygag in bed or lounge on the patio after he has asked, "well what can I do NOW?" (and she directs him to the nearest bakery)
I like this one!
Posts: 1728 | Location: Seattle, WA for now... | Registered: 02 May 2005
In our family, Charley has always been the one to make a morning bakery run... in France, Germany, England, even here at home.
We talked about why that was. He said that breakfast was his favorite meal and having the fresh bread (and interesting bread) was much more important to him than me. That's true. Unless we had company, I can't imagine ever going out early in the morning to bring back croissants or pastries. I enjoy a morning croissant, but not enough to go out of my way to get it. (I'd be happy to have some yoghurt that was already in the fridge.)
I suspect Charley also samples some of the bread before it makes it home.
And who knows-- he may also be filling the male "hunter/gatherer" role.
There is an old French classmic movie "La femme du boulanger" about a nymphoniacal adulterous boulangère, which is supposed to be a traditional French fantasy, plus the fact that boulangers work all night and ain't around much. Kevin, that's probably NOT what you are talking about...
Oh Kaydee, you made my eyes bug out and then laugh when I misread your note...I thought when you said "having the fresh bread (and interesting bread) was much more important to him than ME" you were saying that having the bread was more important than having YOU!! I thought, wow...that's a dangerous statement to make. It wasn't until I shook my head and read it again, I realized you were saying having fresh bread was more important to him that it was to YOU!!
Now if we are talking about my all time favorite shop in Paris that had those particularly good almond croissants, I can certainly see perhaps pondering the question that at that very moment, which would I choose -- my partner or the croissant....I'm afraid he might get his feelings hurt. But as long as he could have his chocolate one, I don't imagine he would walk away very sullen.
"having the fresh bread (and interesting bread) was much more important to him than ME"
I also noticed, my eyes also popped, then I thought: different strokes blabla.
Ah, people, that's when grammar counts ! Kathy, you may have meant "having the fresh bread (and interesting bread) was much more important to him than to me" instead of "having the fresh bread (and interesting bread) was much more important to him than ME", but who knows.
Americana, one of my friends' wife escaped with the boulangere, but that was in Italy maybe she saw that film.
back to the question: I would love to get out of the house early in the morning and get a fresh breath of air.
I agree that the men on vacation have the habit of leaving to go to work so it gives them a sense of normality to do something early in the morning and perhaps gather their thoughts before facing the family all day.
Family vacations can be pretty stressful but not just for the guys, I think for everyone so to get out by yourself without having to justify it is pretty cool. Then you can take your time in the morn while everyone wakes up.
Excellent responses - certainly giving me food for thought (pun intended ???) - and certainly helping me to round out my thesis. Of course, Wikipedia has a long discussion on just this topic and of course, www.buyyourthesis.com has plenty on offer, but I prefer not to go that route...
So to summarize and further the discussion -
1) One general hypothesis is that women need longer in the morning to relax in bed,make themselves pretty, etc. - and that sending their uppidity spouses out on an errand is the best way to get some peace and quiet. But if this was true, why wouldn't the ratio be the same when the tourists are not around ???
2) Some feeling that men are hungrier in the morning and earlier than women. But once again, unless we think this is only true during vacations, it doesn't explain the changing ratio during the season.
3) An interesting comment regarding language. I must say that from anecdotal observation, it's true that men are much more likely to just launch themselves into French without a worry for how ridiculous they sound. Possibly they don't care. Possibly they don't realize how ridiculous they sound... However, in Provence, 90% of tourists are native French speakers. So this couldn't possibly explain why men are at the bakery in the morning and not women.
4) Actually, only one of you came close to my personal theory regarding this sociological phenomena. It's important to note, and I regret not to have mentioned it before, that when standing in line at the butcher or pushing a shopping cart around Leclerc, the ratio of men to women runs a more normal 50/50. So once again, we find there is something particular about the bakery in the morning. Hmmm, what could it be ??
Mr Alecto and I have an opposite problem. When it comes to bread or cheese shops I have to be the buyer and he stands outside the window pointing and gesturing until the shopowner and I both want to throttle him. For pates(no accent, sorry), meats, veggies and fruits ... he's the guy, but bread? Cheese? Nope.
So now I've skewed your results!
Cheers! Alecto
Posts: 181 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: 06 August 2004
First, what did your "colleagues" in line have to say about their bread-buying habits?
Then....
RE: 1-4
-My husband goes out for pastries too...even here at home when we want them and we're not going together (because sometimes it's a "date). I just asked and he said he thinks maybe men get up earlier. When asked about M/F ratio, he said that it's more men - either place (here at home at the local coffee shop, at the french bakery nearby or even in France where we spend most summers).
I'm not sure about that "men are hungrier" theory. I'm starving in the morning! ...Unless we've eaten a dinner that lasted until midnight. But I do think my husband is ready in a jiffy and feels "ready" to go out in public. I want to fix the cowlick, put on "fresh" clothing, fix the back of my hair where I slept all night, etc., etc..
Language...well, I speak much better French than my husband (which he would admit to easily), but he has NO inhibitions at all. If he needs or wants something in any country, he WILL come home with it. He will try, and try again. He will use another language, drawings or gestures and won't give up (I would just take whatever was proffered and crawl home to look up the words in a dictionary and then try again in another city!).
Here's my personal theory...we are teachers and during the school year we are in bed early, so this just pertains to us. I LOVE to read. LOVE it. During breaks, and especially summers, I will read very late (2am+). My husband will go to bed around 10-11:30 so he can ride his bike early (yes, even in France as this bike is barely 2nd to the wife and goes on the plane with us)- as soon as it's light - and is home and ready for breakfast just as I awake. Therefore, he goes out for pastries while I get dressed.
Of course, this is not EVERY day...but it is most days, well the days we have pastries anyhow (higher frequency than when at home).
This is a very interesting conversation! Thanks,and keep us updated as to your "research"!
Americana - is the movie worth watching? Sounds interesting, but...well...interesting is not always "worth" watching!
Laura
Posts: 917 | Location: Edmonds, WA | Registered: 01 April 2006
mericana - is the movie worth watching? Sounds interesting, but...well...interesting is not always "worth" watching!
Yes, it is interesting especially in an sociological point of view, to understand one of the top fantasies in the French culture. And yes, interesting does not always make a good movie to watch. This is not an action-packed fast-paced Hollywood movie. But it is every bit Marcel Pagnol. And one's heart breaks every time the boulangère's cat Pomponnette is mentioned.
This thread made me to laugh, but also to think about a few paterns, though I couldn't generalize.
quote:
You are stuck on vacation with the family. You can't just go to work. You can't go into the garage and pretend to fix the car. The lawnmower isn't an option. So when you see the chance to make a break for it you go.
This I can believe.
quote:
The lady takes longer to shower, makeup and dress in the morning.
Another urban legend? We should use a chronometer to see how long one spends in the bathroom.
I can see the following pattern: Usually my husband gets "ready" surprisingly fast. Then he is waiting for me and putting some pressure. Then I am ready and I take care of the child, while at the same time I am going through a check list with my husband (if I won't then he will forget something important for sure). Usually while doing this he suddenly realizes that he has forgotten so many things. Finally all the family is waiting for him, as he completes the remaining tasks. When we are on vacation, I hate being pressurized and so I can find tasks for him in no time: this is a great time to send him to trash bins and recycling items. For the bakeries, I have no clue, because usually I go in while DH is waiting outside. A theory can be as follows: Usually in the South of Europe women go food shopping. I could hardly see a man in a bakery or other specialties store. During the vacation period tourists mostly come from Northern regions where habits are different. My husband does all grocery shopping every week except for specialties, this is my area. So, while on vacation we are food shopping either together or I do alone, since this is all specialties to him. So,am I part of 10%? When we were in Cassis and in small typical bakeries I could only see women, but no foreigh tourists. All men were waiting outside with kids. May be because the space was greatly reduced inside?
The lady takes longer to shower, makeup and dress in the morning.
Another urban legend? We should use a chronometer to see how long one spends in the bathroom...
Hi! everyone's favorite pedant here with a bit of clarification. "Lady takes longer...in the morning" is not an Urban Legend. It is a Suburban Myth. Here's the difference.
Urban Legends; also known as Foaflore, from Friend of a Friend-lore; are tales of particular incidents. "The Chihuahua in the Microwave" or "Spiders in Beehive Hairdo" are examples. Wikipedia says the first known use of the term in print was in 1968.
But, according to the Skeptic's Dictionary, "suburban myths are common misconceptions that are uncritically passed on as established truths by 'experts' and non-experts alike. Suburban myths should not be confused with urban legends." See also "factoids" and "truthiness."
Thanks! Bucky "Trying To Slow Down" Edgett
Posts: 916 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 24 April 2006
The lady takes longer to shower, makeup and dress in the morning. The gentleman is hungry, so he goes in search of food and gives the lady her space.
This is what happens with us. I always shower, do my hair and makeup and it always takes me longer to get ready than my husband. He's hungry "Now," and doesn't want to wait for me before going out for breakfast goodies. Also, I don't drink coffee and he really needs that.
We've been married 35 years and my routine has always been the same. It's worked well for us.
Sharon J
Posts: 1158 | Location: Houston, TX USA | Registered: 01 November 2003
Well thanks again for all your help and suggestions and analysis - quite well thought out everybody.
However, after furthering my interviews with fellow men in line this week at the boulangerie, my personal suspicions have been confirmed:
The reason why the male-female ratio in French boulangeries is 9:1 is quite simply the fact that 97.3% of people serving customers in the bakeries are female. And as we all know, one of the joys of travel is to interact with locals and experience the native culture. And what better way to do so than having a little tête-à-tête with the fairer sex each morning when one's better half is back at the gite or villa having a snooze.
This, as an aside, also explains the fact that the female to male ratio in lines waiting to be served at the boucheries is 8:2 !
When we vacationed on Cape Cod, my husband always went out early to get donuts. Eventually, I discovered that he was buying several more donuts than he was bringing back for daughter and me. The rest were inside him.
Originally posted by Americana in Parigi: There is an old French classmic movie "La femme du boulanger" about a nymphoniacal adulterous boulangère, which is supposed to be a traditional French fantasy, plus the fact that boulangers work all night and ain't around much. Kevin, that's probably NOT what you are talking about...
The theme also features as one of the stories in Peter Mayle's A year in Provence, at least in the BBC movie version. Can't remember the book well enough to tell if the movie is faithful to the book. But in the movie, a local baker's wife runs off, just when the annual festival is about to get underway. Now, there are two bakers in town. The one whose (strikingly beautiful) wife runs off is a real baker: up all night making the bread from scratch. The other secretly buys his dough from a service. Not right!
When the real baker's wife absconds, as she apparently is wont to do, the real baker falls into a slough of despond, gets roaring drunk and will not be able to compete in the festival's Best Local Products show. It seems the phony baker will win the contest!
Of course the Mayles and their friend Regis want to help the real baker. How they persuade the baker's wife to return in time to sober him up and bake the real bread is a wonderful little twist.
Thanks! Bucky "Trying To Slow Down" Edgett
Posts: 916 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 24 April 2006
Just to skew your results... I'm the one who needs more sleep than my husband, so he reads while I wake up. I'm also the one whose nose leads her to any nearby bakery. My dear husband just shrugs in disinterest or waits outside while I drool over the offerings. I snack on pastries while we walk along, and he abstains.
How does this affect your observations, Kevin?
Charity
Posts: 1757 | Location: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: 11 May 2003
Most of the time, the mistake is on the premises, or thesis. What is " a touristic season". Is that vacation time for visitors or for locals. Are the two the same?. If you change definition with a highly correlated one your thesis becomes vicious (where the answer is embedded in the thesis). Here is an example: "When men goes to work, woman goes to the bulangerie, when men does not go to work then he goes to the bulangerie. This happens in countries where men mostly work and woman are mostly housekeeping, it is not observable where woman had gained emancipation"
Hi Kevin!
so they bravely set forth to get the bread so long as they know the way and don't, God forbid, have to ask for directions from a stranger. The reason, in my opinion for your ratio is the male tummy rumbles louder.
