Hello Everyone,
I am new to this site and new to traveling in general, as I have been busy with school for the past 5 years and now that I am finally graduating with my master's degree I decided it was time to reward myself.
Me and two of my friends are going on a trip to Europe from May 25- June 15. I have already booked the tickets, we are flying in to Munich and beginning our adventures there.
I am budgeting about $4500 for this 3 week trip. This sum will be used for everything other than airfare. I am thinking of getting a EurRail Global pass for 21 days for $580 to cover my entire trip period.
My goal for this trip is to simply experience Western Europe, at least get a superficial broad experience. I was born and raised in Lithuania myself, although I have been in Los Angeles for the past 6 years. I feel it is time to see what western Europe is like.
My initial plan was to spend a day or two in Munich, then take the train down to Italy, visiting Venice, Genoa, Florence, Rome, Portofino and Pisa. I was told south of Rome Italy gets fairly poor and that it is not worth going. I was then planning on taking the train along southern France, stopping in Nice, Monaco, St. Tropez, etc, then going down to Spain, and perhaps limiting my trip there to Barcelona, Valencia and Ibiza. Is Madrid worth going to with my time constraints? After that I was planning to head north into France, stopping by Bordeaux and of course, spending at least 3 days in Paris. I also plan to spend at least 3 days in Rome. I know this plan is overambitious and I will likely drop some destinations in favor of more time at others.
Regardless, I just wanted to hear some feedback on what people think are some don't miss destinations in Germany, Italy, France or Spain, and what I can afford to bypass. Any and all suggestions/recommendations/comments/observations are welcome. Thank you so much!
Ignas

Hi Ignas, welcome to Slow Travel Talk. I've got to warn you though, you may want to read about the premise for our site, What is Slow Travel, as I'll lay odds that most of the advice you'll receive will tend towards you're doing way too much and will end up spending most of your time on trains, rather than actually seeing or experiencing your destinations.

For example, you could spend those three weeks in Italy alone. Or if you want to see three countries, perhaps divide your time between Germany, Italy and Spain, but within each country, limit yourself to one base a piece.

Those are just some ideas; I'm sure you will get plenty more.

"I was told Italy south of Rome gets fairly poor and that it was not worth going."

You were told very wrong. I would be inclined to spend the entire three weeks "south of Rome".

Thanks so much for your advice, Kim. I realize my itinerary is way too ambitious and that was part of the reason for my query - asking for advice from people in narrowing my trip down to a few "can't miss" essential cities.

Carter, any specific city recommendations in the south of Italy?

quote:

I was told south of Rome Italy gets fairly poor and that it is not worth going.

Well did you look into Pompeii site and into Paestum? What about spectacular views of the Amalfi coast? What about Sicily? Very rich in history and food, wine experiences too.

3 days in Rome or Paris is really very short. Also if you go to Spain you will have to cover big distances.
It doesn't make sense as your time is too short. Did you think of taking a tour with Cosmos or other? If you want to cover more countries it would make sense taking a tour, so all the transfers are easy.

Ignas, welcome to S-L-O-W-trav.
First of all, your original plan - with 15 destinations - give you averagely 1 days per destination. Remember you are not beamed from place to place, but are taking trains. Every time you change destination, there goes half a day at best, or even a whole day doing nothing, no sightseeing, just commuting.
Therefore you have one day per Munich, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Rome, Portofino, Pisa, Nice, Monaco, St. Tropez, Barcelona, Valencia, Ibiza, Madrid, Paris.
So forget 3 days in Rome and 3 days in Paris. You have 1 day there each.
Lastly, like my fellow STs, I read with interest that you were told "south of Rome Italy gets fairly poor and that it is not worth going".
Your travel advisor has the opposite concept of travel from us. The richness of a culture has nothing to do with statistical standard of living. I can even say that in many southern Italian towns, the people live a much more enriched life than suburbanites in other developed countries. Whoever told you not to visit those places because he/she thought they were poor should stick to package tours.
But travelling is something else entirely. It is about opening up, not closing off.
Bon voyage.

Hi TrojanEE,

Welcome to Slow Travel and congratulations as you prepare to finish your studies.

Just a few days ago I had lunch with two of my former students, recently graduated, who are leaving in about a week on an 11 week backpacking trip through Europe. Their itinerary was also much more fast-paced than the nature of this Slow Travel website. They want to see a lot of Europe on this first, long-awaited trip and know they will return to experience Europe on a deeper, slower level. They did at least slow it down somewhat, with at least two nights just about everywhere and as many as 4-5 in a few places that most interested them.

I do understand the desire to see as much of Europe as possible on a first trip. Think about the places that most interest you, and do try to spend at least two or three nights in each place. As others have said, getting from place to place does take time. I'm sure you are not going to Europe to spend half of your time in a train or train station. Look at a site like www.bahn.de to understand the train schedules and how long it will take to travel from place to place. Then, hard as it may be, cut out a few of your destinations that may not fit. Think about whether or not it is worth spending much of a day to get somewhere and much of the next day to get to the next place if you only have a few waking hours to experience your destination.

Of course we are happy to have you here (and will try to convert you to the "slow" way), but you might also want to visit some sites more directed toward travelers like www.backpackeurope.com or www.eurotrip.com or even Lonely Planet and Rick Steves.

Kathy

Very good advice from Kathy---as usual.

Welcome to this message board and to SlowTrav!

You should have a great experience and you have already made some solid choices. You have enough money for three weeks, flights arranged, good friends, and you are eager to learn. I'm going to assume that you didn't plan to stay in each place on your list, but were just throwing out some possibilities.

I have to echo the above advice to make some hard choices so that you will ENJOY your trip. Traveling is exciting but exhausting, and with too many destinations, you will not have time to enjoy the wonderful things that come your way, many of them unplanned. I agree that you should check the train schedules online to get some idea of what that would look like. A good point was made - every time you travel on the train, you spend a day in train stations and on trains, and though the train system is fabulous, you will be compromising on food, sleep, flexibility, and comfort. You could leave yourself with no room to savor and explore.

Talk to others, read, look at photos, examine your own priorities and daydreams. I would recommend no more than four or five bases for your three weeks. Try to stay at least 4 days in each place. Make some choices. And it sounds like you're most interested in cities, not countryside. Sounds like you want variety, and contrast. Only you know which places are most important to you. My "can't miss" place might not be yours. Spain is just so FAR, as is southern Italy. I would choose either Spain OR Italy, just because of the distances involved from Munich. If you drew a circle around Munich, no more than 6 hours by train, where could you go?

Enjoy your planning. You and your friends should have a great time.
Linda

Congratulations on your degree. I also rewarded myself when I got my master's--with 6 weeks in Italy, and nothing but. Like most sentiments on this board, I would slow it down. Fly into Munich, spend a few days there, and then train it down to Venice, and head south from there. Stick to Italy this time...expand to other countries when you get another degree, or sooner!

Thank you so much, everyone, for your kind words of advice and encouragement. I did cut down heavily on my destinations, as the more planning I did, the more I realized how unfeasible it was to visit all of the destinations I had in mind. I cut down my itinerary to the following:
* May 26. Fly into Munich at 4PM. Spend night in Munich.
* May 27. Spend entire day in Munich, take night train to Venice (9:03PM).
* May 28. Arrive in Venice at 6:03AM. Spend day and night in Venice.
* May 29. Take train to Rome, 7:47AM-12:10PM. Spend day/night in Rome.
* May 30. Rome.
* May 31. Rome.
* June 1st. Train to Florence, 9:00AM -10:40AM. Spend day/night in Florence.
* June 2nd. Spend day in Florence or take a day trip to Siena.
* June 3rd. Train to Cinque Terre, 7:58AM - 9:51AM. Spend day/night in Cinque Terre.
* June 4th. Cinque Terre to Nice by Train, 7:01AM - 12:06PM. Spend day in Nice/ visit Monaco.
* June 5th. Spend day in Nice. Fly to Barcelona 11:15PM - 0:25AM.
* June 6th. Barcelona.
* June 7th. Barcelona.
* June 8th. Fly to Paris 10:00AM - 12:00PM. Spend day/night in Paris.
* June 9th. Paris.
* June 10th. Paris.
* June 11th. Paris. Possible daytrip to Normandy/Burgundy.
* June 12th. Train Paris-Amsterdam 8:25AM - 12:36AM. Spend day/night in Amsterdam.
* June 13th. Amsterdam.
* June 14th. Train Amsterdam - Cologne 8:04AM - 10:45AM. Rent BMW 3 series. Drive to Nurburgring for BMW Ring-Taxi ride around the ring. Drive back to Cologne, spend evening/get dinner there. Take night train to Munich (11:46PM).
* June 15th. Arrive at 07:16AM. Neil departs to DUS at 10:10AM.
Ignas departs to VNO at 13:25.

What do you guys think?
I know it's still not "slow travel", especially the hectic last day, but I really want to get a broad experience from very diverse places in Europe so I can decide which I want to come back and spend a couple of week in by itself. Call it an introductory trip if you will.
I do think by the end of the trip I will be exhausted from train rides and living out of my suitcase, but at least I'll be able to say "Okay, Paris wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Next vacation, I'm spending a week in Rome and 5 days in Cinque Terre", for example. I am definitely a convert to the appeal of slow travelling.

What do I think? My first thought is: whatever you do, don't be hungover. Ever. On this trip.

My second thought: drop Venice, drop Cinque Terre, drop Nice, drop Monaco, don't even think about Normandy; not sure what to say about that one day thing with the BMW.

But, as long as you aren't ever hungover, the rest of it might be feasible. Maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by TrojanEE:What do you guys think?

Trojan, what I think is that at your age everything is possible. Me, I get dizzy just from trying to read the list.

But, you will spend too much time in train stations, airports, trains, planes and commuting to each and every one of the above.

What about an open jaw ticket starting in Venice and ending in Amsterdam, deleting Cinque Terre, skipping Nice, going first to Paris then to Barcelona, then to Amsterdam?

And you could rent the Bimer in LA and race it at one of the tracks nearby ...

My recommendation would be to try to visit was many cities as you can, BUT only if you can get from one to the next on an overnight train.
This combines your travel downtime with your sleeping downtime. Plus you have the added benefit of not having to pay for hotels or hostels.
Check the train schedules for night trains that run between cities.
You will be criscrossing the continent, because you will need to take routes that are long enough for you to get a full nights sleep.
If you need to throw in an overnight ferry along the way, so be it.

I for one would love to see how a schedule put together in this way would look.

I have visions of the Energizer Bunny when I look at your ambitious itinerary -- I'm worn out just thinking about it. That said - you are young, and if this is really what you guys want to do - go for it.

But don't expect to return home with any real perspective on any of your stops. You have not left yourselves enough time anywhere to really get the flavor of place. As others have said, you will become very familiar with railroad stations, will spend a lot of time getting to and from airports, waiting in check-in lines and security lines, and trying to figure out how to get from the airport into/back from town. Then there is the time it takes to physically figure out and get your bearings in a new town, with street signs hidden on buildings, or otherwise hard to see and understand. I cannot tell you how many hours we have spent on trips trying to figure out where we were in relation to where we wanted to go, and then working out the logistics of getting there (e.g., where do you buy bus tickets, where is the bus stop for the line you need).

One suggestion -- for each of the places you are planning to visit, agree ahead of time what two or things are your "must-do's" for that place. Then get a map and make sure you know how to get to those places - research bus routes, walking routes, etc. so you can hit the ground running when you get to a new place.

And if you realize after the first few days that you really have bitten off more than you want to chew, go to plan B and decide what you can cut and what you all can't go home without seeing. Europe has been around for a long time, and will still be there when you return -- and you will return.

And as Shannon and Doru have said - really consider eliminating a few stops along the way - Cinque Terre (which covers a lot of territory), Nice, and for sure drop the idea of a day trip to Normandy or Burgundy - you will be on trains enough without spending more time getting to and from somewhere you won't have time to enjoy.

All that said - enjoy your adventure!

Judy

I'll take a stab at this having done something similar at a similar age to yours.

Drop Venice and spend the extra day there in Munich. You can't even begin in "get" Venice in one day.

Train right from Munich to Rome then
to Florence as planned. Drop the CT, adding those days to Florence and then you CAN do the day trip to Siena.

Fly from Florence to Barcelona and continue on your merry way.

Even better would be to forget Spain and add those days to Paris and Amsterdam. That saves you one airfare, too ,I think.

Have great fun! We know you will.

jan

I've done trips something like what you plan, and would agree to cut the number of places. I'm not sure about the recommendation to take night trains: I can get some sleep on transatlantic flights, but when I took night trains at a younger age, I had problems getting any sleep, and I wasn't in shape to do much the next day. Also those trains can have long delays: the one night train that I see in your current plan, arriving in Venice at 6 a.m., might well get in closer to noon, leaving you with half a day there; I agree, better to cut Venice out.

Also the Eurailpass won't cover all your train costs: you'd need to pay supplements for the fast trains, and you'd be limited in where you can make reservations, probably just at station offices, where you'd need to spend a good part of your limited time. Adding another thing: you might run into a one-day train strike somewhere, throwing your plans out of whack.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I think I will make a few cuts such as Venice and Cinque Terre, as suggested.
I was mulling over how I might not have another free summer for a long time as I am starting work in the fall, and you know those pesky 10 day U.S. vacation allowances. I have decided to budget more for the trip and spend an extra week travelling.
I am not sure, however, where to spend that extra week. I will be in Cologne on June 14th and have to decide where to go from there. I will cancel my flight from Munich.
I am considering just spending the week seeing more of Germany. I'd like to explore Berlin for 3 days and also spend a few extra days in Munich to take day trips to Dachau, the BMW museum, and the castles or Salzburg.
An alternate and equally appealing trip seems taking the train to Berlin, spending a few days there, and then flying to Athens for 4-5 days on Easyjet (cheeeeeap tix =]).
Others on the agenda are Switzerland - Interlaken and Gimmelwald, Bern would be only a 5 hour train ride from Koln.
I've heard Prague is nice too.
In other words, I'm completely at a loss of where to go.
What do you guys think?

As a person much wiser than me said today, sometimes young people just have to get out of their system that first, all-encompassing trip. So go for it.

But I think it is also a matter of choices, Trojan! Keep adding plays to the playbook of a team, and they'll end up running around rugged. This is the best analogy I can come up with and the old "keep it simple", which is not helped by adding all the time another enticing destination. You'll get there; you're young (I guess , you have time on your side.

In 1997, we took our first joint trip to Europe; I'd never been, while my wife Doris spent a few weeks between her junior and senior college years in the late 1960s. (That reveals our ages.)

A chorus I sing in (with TourMama and at least one other slow traveler [my choice for the newsletter, a shameless plug], toured for two weeks in England.

Doris and I spent another night in London to wash clothes, send our formal concert dress and other stuff back to California, and prepare.

We flew to Madrid on a Friday morning and spent Friday afternoon and Saturday and Sunday morning in Madrid. On Sunday morning we "trained" to Toledo and spent that afternoon and Monday morning there. Then took the train back to Madrid, left our luggage at the station, and visited two more museum (Guernica the high point), and caught an overnight train to Barcelona.

Our compartment had a shower, so we hit Barcelona about 7am, left our bags at our hotel, washing clothes, and hit sights all day. More sights the next day, and caught a night train to Florence. Thursday afternoon, Friday, and Saturday were days in Florence, nights at the centuries old residence in Fiesole.

Sunday found us off to Siena for the afternoon and all day Monday. Tuesday morning we picked up a rental car, drove in circles around Siena for a while, then drove to Civita de Bagnoregio for an afternoon nap while it rained, then walked across the bridge and spent the afternoon exploring, followed by a wonderful dinner, talking with an elderly woman couple in a very small restaurant.

Wednesday morning we drove to La Spezia and found out that siesta is real and affects your and our plans. We relied on the kindness of strangers, found the rental agency, and eventually trained to Vernazza in the Cinque Terre. Nice dinner, great hikes and dinner the next day. And on Friday, August 1.

(Experienced European travelers will now wince: don't try to travel on August 1. )

Our plans for two days in Provence went up in smoke, squat toilets, trains not running, trains with no seats, and more. Again, thanks to the kindness of strangers, we somehow managed to let our Rousillon landlady know we could not get there, found that our hotel in the 7th Arrondisement could give us our room three nights early, found that we could get to Torino and catch a train which would connect to a bullet train to Paris, and experience that squat toilet while waiting at the _other_ train station in Torino.

We then had a wonderful six days in Paris. And had big time failed connections getting from Paris to Heathrow to LAX to SFO, not how our plane tickets and reservations dictated.

So what is this all about?

We had a wonderful trip, and despite some omitted details, my wife and I survived with our relationship intact.

But we were extremely lucky. From my subsequent experiences, I can't believe that we pulled that trip off with so few difficult problems. (I've left out our relationship strengthening incidents.)

Plot our trip of 1997 out on a map and calendar. Please accept from me that we were crazy and extremely lucky to have so few disasters. Our subsequent European adventures have confirmed that our 1997 itinerary was over ambitious, and that Providence must have been looking out for us.

Either you will return to Europe many times or you won't. If you do, you can savor many more localities. But don't attempt the "If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium" whirlwind tour of everywhere. Your experiences will be warmer and more memorable if you give yourselves time to suddenly have an hour conversation with the couple who run a small restaurant/cafe in the old quarter of Barcelona, because no one eats lunch that late, and both you and they want to figure out what makes the other work things out. You WILL remember that just as strongly as you will remember freaking out as you climb the stairs in a Sagrada Famila tour. And it will mean so much more.

Life is short. Don't waste it on rushing to and fro.

An aside: My friends, including people on this list who know me, might be surprised by my post. I'm usually very hyper. Motorcycle trips trying to average 500-600 miles a day. But please don't try to do Europe like that. You deserve to treat yourself better.

The sermon is over.

But there is an afterword. For career and financial reasons, since we were then in our early 50s, we didn't know if we would ever be able to return to Europe. Even so, we _thought_ we were being conservative in our planning. We were wrong. We tried to do way too much. We were lucky.

Please spend at least two full days each place you visit. Avoid travel days as best you can, because that time is exhausting and lost.

If you were visiting the U.S., would want to visit every state? Or spend valuable time in a few exciting locations? In the U.S., a visitor can spend real time in one segment of travel by car, just to experience how big the U.S. is. Don't waste your time in Europe doing that. Get the experiences of places and people. Spend time talking with people. THAT's what you will really remember. And you can't do that unless you slow travel.

quote:

I was mulling over how I might not have another free summer for a long time as I am starting work in the fall, and you know those pesky 10 day U.S. vacation allowances.

We hear a lot about the 2 week American vacation limit, but I don't know ANYONE who is allowed only that much. That might be the allotment your first year at a new job, but you will not be doomed to 2 weeks the rest of your life. Treating a trip as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity gets people into trouble; they invariably try to see too much. Since you've taken an extra week, you have an opportunity to more time in the countries you've already planned for. I guarantee you will end up wanting to go back to the exact same places you visited this trip, but didn't have enough time to enjoy, or take day trips from. The idea of adding Greece or Prague sounds exhausting. Those are other trips. Add days to your existing itinerary, and fly into one city and out another. And if you're still going to Italy, add Venice back in!

quote:

We hear a lot about the 2 week American vacation limit, but I don't know ANYONE who is allowed only that much.

Now you know someone.

I can tell you for sure that the 2 week American vacation limit is a reality. I changed jobs 18 months ago, and lost all seniority and additional vacation time (5 whole days). I have 3.5 more years to go at this job before earning back those 5 days.

Other than that, I agree with your comments.