UK: speciality
US: specialty

According to the American Heritage Dictionary the British use the first to mean what the second one means in the US. When you read the two definitions they're quite similar: speciality is a distinguishing feature or mark; specialty is a pursuit, occupation, aptitude or skill.

Finding the difference is like trying to pick the fly poop out of the pepper, eh?

quote:

UK: speciality
US: specialty

This is a revelation to me! I have spent my whole life thinking Americans were mispronouncing (leaving out the 'i') our word!

Me too

And the same here! Whenever I heard a person from UK say "speciality," I thought it was "specialty" being mispronounced. You know, like "aluminium" (which, according to my Scribner/Bantam Dictionary is a perfectly legitimate English word in UK)instead of "aluminum," the US version.

That's how language evolves, I guess - or maybe devolves...or, or,

Just to confuse the issue, "specialty" is used in UK English, but only (as far as I know) to indicate a medical specialism or specialisation.

In US, we almost never here "speciality." We use "specialty" to cover it all.

I heard a Premier League announcer use "speciality" just yesterday referring to a Liverpool played who caught the keeper way off his line and took a shot from midfield (missed BTW). The announcer said it had become this player's "speciality" having tried it 3 or 4 times this year. We'd say "specialty" for that one, too.

Speciality/specialty made me think of "forte" (strength or special talent). The Americans, by about 80% to 20% mispronounce this word as "fortay," rather than "fort." It's French, it has no "ez" at the end - how did this happen? In fact "fortay" has become a secondary pronunciation in dictionaries because it has become the most common pronunciation. As the son of an English teacher, this frosts me, but so it goes with language, I guess. (lowest common denominator? Whatever gets used the most automatically becomes the standard, so it won't be long before "fortay" takes over first place. How so in the UK?

...and another misuse occurring in the US is the word "moot." I hear people commonly use it to mean "not subject to debate" (e.g. The point is moot - meaning it's not debatable, so stop arguing about it!). Of course the word means the opposite. (If the point is moot, it IS debatable) - hence the term Moot Court, where lawyers debate their case before a judge.

UK?

Jeff, I'm so surprised to discover that "forte" like in "writing is not my forte" comes from French rather than from Italian... (the other "musical" forte does come from Italian...).
If you translate the expression literally into Italian it makes perfect sense, infact it's widely used as an expression: "scrivere non è mai stato il mio forte"...
Wow the things you learn on ST!!!!

Tou're correct on the derivation of the adverb (forte being "loud" or "loudly" in music) - the noun however (forte as someone's strong point) is derived from French. So unless we're talking loud music or music played loudly, we're taking "fort." ...I think...

My position is eroding quickly. Look what I just found from Merriam Webster:

"Usage: in forte we have a word derived from French that in its "strong point" sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated \for'-tA\ and \for-tE'\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived second definition of forte. Their recommended pronunciation \fort\, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would rhyme it with English for.

So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English \fo'-tA\ and \'fot\ predominate; \for'-tA\ and \for-tA'\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English.

My Australian Macquarie dictionary shows the pronunciation \fort\ is used only when the word is used for "the stronger part of a sword blade between the hilt and the middle" (in contrast to the foible which is the weaker part of the blade between the middle and the tip) and comes from the Latin fortis via the French fort.

I'm pretty sure that both the French and Italian words come from the Latin, and we don't know how that was pronounced.

I think I'd just avoid the issue. And avoiding issues is my strong point....

Touche!...or is that Touchie...

quote:

...and another misuse occurring in the US is the word "moot." I hear people commonly use it to mean "not subject to debate" (e.g. The point is moot - meaning it's not debatable, so stop arguing about it!). Of course the word means the opposite. (If the point is moot, it IS debatable) - hence the term Moot Court, where lawyers debate their case before a judge.

While it's probably true that people aren't aware of the primary meaning of "moot", aren't they more or less using the secondary meaning of the adjective when they say, "It's a moot point"? i.e., the point is too abstract or academic and has no practical significance?

In other words, "It's not worth discussing" rather than "It's not debatable." (Or as Joey from "Friends" says, "The point is moo -- it's like a cow's opinion.")

Wow

The suggestion that people might use moot to mean a subject is too debatable to debate (I paraphrase wildly here) really does put a perpective onto a culture.

Having said what I di about Moot let me try and suggest what we brits might say when the intent is 'this is too airy fairy to be bothered discussing'

- 'its academic' (meant in a semi-pejorative sense)
- 'You are splitting hairs' i.e. seeking fine nuances of difference where broadly we agree


I am sure there are more, but my mind has gone blank.

What about geezer and geezer? Bugger and bugger?

Geezer means an old dorky gentleman in American English, but doesn't it mean something much milder in British English, like a regular bloke?

Bugger, too, seems to be said very often in British English and seems to be rather mild.

Am I going to be expelled from ST now?

Once I wrote an article comparing cuss words in English, French and Chinese, and how their different "targeting" reflects their respective culture.
I can just see the moderator's finger poised above the censor key right now, so I'll stop here...

Naomi, Good catch!

"...aren't they more or less using the secondary meaning of the adjective when they say, 'It's a moot point?' i.e., the point is too abstract or academic and has no practical significance?"

For those that use it that way (the ones who know what it actually means), I believe you're absolutely right...my wife pointed this out to me, as well...I hate when that happens.

I stand by my contention, though, that many people use it to mean not debatable: although, if you think about it, these users probably picked up the wrong "signal" from the correct use by someone else, since both are trying to stop debate, but for two differing reasons.

Owens88 - another expression that aims at conveying the futility of debate for whatever reason (unmoot, moot or otherwise) "...picking the fly poop out of the pepper." This sums it up for me.

Or "...like trying to teach a pig to sing." (i.e. frustrating, fruitless, plus you're gonna anger the pig!)

I'd be interested in getting some feedback on the regional uses of "kitty-corner," "catty-corner," and "catercorner".

Being mainly based in Ontario and Quebec, I hear almost exclusively "kitty-corner." A guy I know who lives in NY state recently wrote "catty-corner" in an e-mail to me, but I'm not sure where he's originally from. I did come across a Chicago-ite message board where local users seemed to feel that "catty-corner" was weird and "kitty-corner" was the norm.

I don't think I've ever heard a North American use "catercorner."

What's the UK story on that?

We don't use any of those, and it's not something that comes up in conversation often enough for many of us to have heard the North American usages. I think I've heard "kitty-corner", and who knows, it may have existed once upon a time in very old English. But I think we would normally say "diagonally across" (how boring, I hear you say).

And as for swear words, well, I wouldn't say "bugger" in front of the Queen, but for some reason it does have a vaguely humorous overtone for a lot of people: when I lived in Stoke on Trent a few decades ago, it seemed to be commonplace slang for one's children, and there was a TV sketch show where this was a regular character (and punchline):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUvg1KhOEqQ

In Australia "bugger" is not used in polite circles but it's well enough accepted to be used in general conversation. There is a famous TV ad where it is used several times to raise a laugh.

"Geezer" brings Steptoe and Son to mind. In the 60s (and if I return to England now) I only use it because it is unusual.

Patrick, OED definitely agrees that the kitties in all their permutations are a North American thing (thought the origins seem to be Old French->Middle English). Somehow I just thought we were bastardizing an English thing.

And this morning I found a very thorough answer to my own question about regional differences by e-mailing Bert Vaux, one of the main linguists behind the Harvard Survey of North American Dialects. Hereis the link to the kitty corner regionalism results.

Anyone who's interested in the full regional dialect survey results or who wants to contribute to the new, international survey (!) can check out the various links on Vaux's site.

I don't know if he has any insights into buggers and geezers though.

nb

I remember being hugely shocked (or rather the shock on my Grandmother's face) when we moved from London to deepest Devon, when I was 11. Bugger was used all the time in the village -'you daft bugger', 'them buggers over to that farm there', - when done with a strong West Country accent it's just affectionate and charming. My daughters still look taken aback when they hear it used in normal conversation when we go to visit Grandma (not by her, I hasten to add). It is more of a swear word to me - of the hammer hitting the thumb exclaimation variety.

Ah well, Devon.... I believe it's quite customary there for complete strangers to greet each other as "my lover" - even a policeman giving out a speeding ticket.

In the part of Scotland where I am from it is common to refer to someone as boy. This leads to phrases like "Talk to the old boy in the pub"

Being in Scotland complicates things even more. Scots isn't a dialect of English its a close cousin from the same germanic root.

Some examples I have known to mislead English people in the past

"I am going for the messages" - means I am going shopping.

use of the word friend for close family but pronounced freend.

One of the best is dreich which is a description of the very wet mist we get sometimes when walking through it it wets you like rain but water drops don't fall. I listened to a radio program on language where they asked a 3rd generation Indian/Scot whether he used Scots words when talking to relatives in the Punjab, he explained that he used dreich as there were no words in Punjabi to even describe the concept.

'the old boy' or 'the auld boy' in Scotland and in Northern Ireland is an affectionate term for your father! Similarly 'the auld doll' refers to your mother or an elderly lady.

You are so right, Patrick - I had forgotten that one - the common greeting being "Alright, my lover?" Heard it only last week.

CDT, do you know the derivation of messages ? Surely that can't come from German? And how do you pronounce dreich? Presumably dreech rather than driche.

quote:

Originally posted by Sinead:
Similarly 'the auld doll' refers to your mother or an elderly lady.

But in London the old girl probably refers to the wife - at least you hear it in films. I can't say I've heard anyone use that expression lately.

Scots, or Lallans, owes a lot to both French and Dutch. When I was a child we "are gawin' doon the street tae dae the messages" meant to go into town to go shopping. Messages almost certainly comes from the strong French influence dating back to the time of James IV and possibly earlier.

Dreich is pronounced dreech but the "ch" sound can only really be done by the Scots and the Dutch.

My favourite Scots word has always been "scunnered".

scunnered = thoroughly fed up. I hear this word regularly!

quote:

Originally posted by Sinead:
'the old boy' or 'the auld boy' in Scotland and in Northern Ireland is an affectionate term for your father! Similarly 'the auld doll' refers to your mother or an elderly lady.

What about "old man" for father? Is that used everywhere? Here we use "the old man" and less frequently "old lady."

Also, it's not uncommon to refer to one's parents as "the 'rents" or "the 'rentals."

nb

The old man or the old lady is pretty common and as long it's done with affection general accepted. "The old lady" can also pejoratively refer to ones wife, I might add...not in my house mind you.

Years ago, I got hooked on referring to my parents collectively as "the fans," which is used in certain (NE) part of the US. Since one or both were always at my athletic events it seemed appropriate for me to use it.

There are certainly some heavy Dutch influences in Scots. They share some words kine for cattle and kirk for church.

I find in Holland I can read about 75% of a Dutch newspaper although spoken Dutch is harder.

My favourite is I think "thrawn" which meabs you are doing something out of so much sheer cussedness that its causing you harm.

I would call my dad "faither".

Then there are hundreds of co-opted gaelic words.

The best mixed language comment I ever heard was from an old Islander whose first language was Gaelic. He said

"There is nothing in the Gaelic that can convey such a hast notions as Imshallah or mananna."

To mean something is not legit,
Americans say it's not kosher ,
The French say c'est pas catholique ,
The Brits say it's not cricket ,
The Cantonese say it's not soccer.

quote:

Originally posted by Americana in Parigi:
To mean something is not legit,
Americans say it's not kosher ,
The French say c'est pas catholique ,
The Brits say it's not cricket ,
The Cantonese say it's not soccer.

To me, "it's not cricket" means that it's unfair; that the (unspoken) rules have been broken.

In old Urbino dialect they used to say:
It's not "cascirro" [kahshihrroh]... obviously coming from "kasher"
... mmmmh, this is hardly American vs. English....

Londoners often say something's "kosher" or not to indicate whether or not it's the genuine article (as in market trading). "It's not cricket" means that someone's behaviour is unfair.

Not sure I've seen this:

UK: "bit" or "bits" to mean things, parts, places, responsibilties, etc.

US: part, or parts, thing or things

UK say things like "you do your bit" or Coventry has some lovely tourist bits" and the like - it a great all purpose word apparently, but I cannot fathom when and how it's used exactly.

The underlying idea of a bit is a part of something (?something bitten off?) - so by extension it's come to mean part of a set (as in bits of a jigsaw puzzle or something you have to assemble) or what something collapses into when broken (bits and pieces) or a share of something (that's the idea of "doing my bit": it implies everyone should be doing their share of whatever it is), or a modifying diminutive to understate something ("a bit of a do" could be anything from having a few friends over for an impromptu meal to a humorous way of describing the most lavish wedding or the biggest punch-up you've ever seen; to be "in a bit of a state" indicates some distress or disorder).

In US we use the broken to bits or bits and pieces and we use the doing my bit (more) or doing your bit (less), but not necessarily connoting the sharing principle or idea (can be used either way).

We also have the phrase "comedy bit," (a short comedy act) which fits into the "part of a whole" thesis, I guess

We use a "bit of a mess" or "bit of..." whatever for understatement, as well. The use I did not understand in UK was a far more casual use, as I said above: e.g. "Oxford has some nice bits for tourists or for serious history buffs..." Is this meant to imply that parts of Oxford are tourist attractions? The whole in this case being the entire town of Oxford. If so, we do not use this word in this way in US; we'd say "parts."

After dialoguing about this a little, I'm beginning to see the similarities in use, rather than the differences, but I heard the words "bit" and "bits" used more broadly in UK, whereas, I hear far less frequently in US except as noted above.

How about 'a bit part' - a very small role in a play or film of just a few words.

"Bit part." Of course and I'm sure there are others. So-o-o-o, in this case "bit" cannot be substituted for "part," since that would make "bit part," into "part part."

A "little bit" is a diminutive used to describe how much more/less, how much longer/shorter, how much higher/lower, how much older/younger, et al.(the list is endless) and its use in this context is close to "partly," more akin to "smidge" or "scosh" or "tad." i.e not all, or not a lot, or not too much.

The word is used colloquilly in many, many ways in UK and US, so there doesn't seem to be a straightforward and clear way to describe all circumstances for its use on either side of the pond, I'm afraid.

This thread's been going on for so long, I'm not sure if we've had this one yet:

US: Exhibit
UK: Exhibition (an exhibit would be one of the things on show within an exhibition)

US: High Holiday

Until reading in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil "Rule number three: observe the high holidays-Saint Patrick's Day and the day of the Georgia-Florida football game I had only heard it in the song Nickel for the Fiddler It's a high holiday on the 21st of June. Wikipedia describes it as a Jewish religious holiday, in which case the Midnight reference wouldn't exactly be kosher, if you get my drift.

I don't think this has a UK equivalent, but am waiting to be corrected.

You do occasionally hear the phrase "High days and holidays" in the UK.

Another I have noted are the use of felon and felony which have pretty well dropped out of use in the UK.

There was a series of law reforms in the UK a couple of decades ago which dropped the technical classification of "felony" and "misdemeanour".

Don't forget there are two legal systems in Britain, Scots Law and English Law.

In English law you have burglary, in Scots its Housebreaking, Scots Law has no concept of trespass.

I can't remember which one but there was a judge at the Old Bailey in England who once remarked that the way in which Scots pronounced "murder" made the crime sound so much worse than it actually was.

Fair point.

There was once a sketch on a TV comedy show from Scotland which managed a fair imitation of an entire episode of "Taggart" simply through every character saying "Murrrd'rrr" in the appropriate tones of voice.