Here's another one that might not cause much confusion in either direction, but is different:

US: calling collect
UK: reversing the charges / making a reverse-charge call

When I grew up in the States, we often told the operator that we wanted to reverse the charges. Maybe the parlance has now changed.

As I've never planned a trip to the UK until now, I've completely ignored this thread.

WHAT A MISTAKE!

I've just spent an hour reading through these conversations, and what an education!

My initial purpose for visiting was to find out if there was any specific discussion of the Scottish version of English.

I'm thinking we are going to be spending quite a lot of time asking people to repeat themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Deborah:
My initial purpose for visiting was to find out if there was any specific discussion of the Scottish version of English.

There are loads of word that are local to Scotland and there are many other board members who are more qualified than I am to enumerate them. The first one that comes to mind is "ken" for "know" as in do ya ken [something]. I found this website that lists others.

But the accent will be the thing you'll really notice. It's quite gentle and a bit sing songy in Edinburgh but in my experience Glasgow seems a bit more guttural and full of dialect. For example I read the following joke in the paper yesterday ( Simon Hoggart's Week) . It has to be told in a Scottish accent: chap goes into a baker's and looks at the cakes. "Is that a doughnut or a meringue?"

"No, you're right," says the shopkeeper. "It's a doughnut."

And old one but it still makes me laugh:

Mrs Kenspeckle is out shopping on a cold day in Glasgow, and sees a sign in a butcher's window for Ayrshire bacon. As she enters the shop, the butcher is hutching up close to the heater. She points to the counter:

"Is that your Ayrshire bacon?"
"No, it's ma haunds Ah'm warmin'".

Alternatively, Deborah could accustom her ear using these TV clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWrSEKNlZkI

Beebee and Patrick:

I've never heard those before (I've led a sheltered life)

Rab C Nesbit for King of Scotland!

Thanks Patrick and Beebee! That was very good info. I loved the article link.

Oddly enough, when we were on the Bay of Kotor in Montenegro last year, the people who rented the cottage behind us were Scottish.

Dan couldn't understand a word they said. I didn't seem to have any problem at all.

I've just realised another difference (scraping the barrel here, I don't think it's likely to cause much trouble for a visitor to Britain, though I can just about imagine a very dim Briton causing some hilarity in the US):

Pasties:

UK: a pie, containing usually a peppery/savoury filling of meat and vegetables, in a distinctive semi-circular/half-moon shape with a crimped edging of crust

US: a supposedly self-adhesive item of female adornment, often with tassels attached.

Good one Patrick!

However in singular form 'pasty.' Would that still constitute the tassel attached adornment?

Elly

Ah, now there I'm not an expert. The website I looked at (only briefly and for the purposes of research, your Honour) wasn't selling them singly, I think. Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a market for the more specialised sort of burlesque dancer.

quote:

Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a market for the more specialised sort of burlesque dancer.

.......and we're back to Morris dancing again.

UK: Morris dancing:
http://www.dontpaniconline.com...photo_1210607323.jpg

US: Morris, dancing:

http://illustrativeimages.file.../menke-dad-dance.jpg

My retinas are never going to recover.

Patrick! Panda! A little decorum, please.

Returning to the purpose of this thread - on our recent visit to a British cousin she talked about a "kitchen roll". Which we translated, upon seeing one, as - paper towels.

Judy

It's sitting in the back row of the class that does it.....

Anyway, kitchen paper products: we tend to call them kitchen towel (in the singular, oddly), which is a blend of the two !

I think of paper towels as those rough paper ones, dispensed one by one, available in public 'facilities' after following the command 'Now Wash Your Hands'.

Or, more often than not, not available.

This is one of those areas where terminology hasn't quite settled down, I think. I'm not even sure I'm totally consistent myself, but I'm reasonably certain "kitchen" is added somewhere for the kind of thing you use to clean up spills and mop down surfaces.

quote:

terminology hasn't quite settled down

You are right there. We refer to 'kitchen paper'.

UK: the striker was offside, but no penalty was "given."
US: the striker was offside, but no penalty was "called."

Now try explaining the offside rule....

... or the rules of cricket

"Who's up for a game of Mornington Crescent"?!

quote:

kitchen paper products

I noticed this morning that Waitrose goes with the "kitchen towel" terminology. I think in our family we tend to refer to "kitchen paper", perhaps because the kitchen towel is the thing made out of traditional towelling fabric that we use to dry our hands on.

What about "dish cloths" or "tea towels" or "drying-up cloths"? Are any or all of those terms used in America for the things we dry the plates and cutlery with?

Australia.....dish cloth is used to wash the dishes and tea towel to dry them.

Unless of course you have a dishwasher!

Elly

Here in the wild west of California, I grew up with dish towels - used interchangeably with dishcloths. My Italian grandmother used to use flour sacking, with a brightly colored crocheted border (which is how I learned to chrochet), often with an embroidery design in the corners. Now, they are often made of terry cloth, or a waffle weave texture.

As for what we call the thing you WASH dishes with - if memory serves, it was merely a smaller dish cloth, or, more frequently, a sponge. And yes, Elly, even more frequently, a dishwasher.

Judy

quote:

a smaller dish cloth, or, more frequently, a sponge

supplemented by a scritcher.

Dish cloth to wash with, dish towels to dry. My mother, and maternal grandmother (from North Dakota) almost always embroidered the dish towels.

quote:

supplemented by a scritcher

That suggests to me a child or young person who's been unwillingly conscripted into doing the washing up and lets you know - at length. But I suppose it means what I call a scourer.

Unless it's what in that great work of Sussex lore, "Cold Comfort Farm", turns up as Adam's "liddle mop" (though I haven't seen one for years, so maybe they don't make them any more).

quote:

that great work of Sussex lore, "Cold Comfort Farm"

That is one of my favorite movies! We went with friends when it first came out. My husband and I loved it, the friends HATED it. And so it goes.

quote:

"Cold Comfort Farm"

Down near Worthing the other day we actually saw a van belonging to "Seth Evans, carpenter and joiner". I wonder what happens in his woodshed!

quote:

one of my favorite movies!

It was particularly popular in my family for the bringing to prominence of the actress Kate Beckinsale. She appeared briefly in a TV documentary just the other day about her father Richard who was a very popular sitcom actor in the 1970s ("Porridge" and "Rising Damp").

"Cold Comfort Farm" also featured Rufus Sewell, who was extremely popular with the ladies in my household, especially after his brooding appearances in the TV series of "Middlemarch".

OK, to change the tone and the topic a bit, I'm wondering about a usage I just read on the BBC website. In their story about what they named "the balloon boy case" (which, incidentally, I'm now hearing discussed again on CNN in the background), the following was written:

"In a later segment of the interview Mr Heene avoided a request to ask Falcon once again what he meant by his comment, and instead rounded on his questioner."

What does "rounded on" mean here? Is it British slang? Is it comparable to "jumped on," which I might hear someone saying on TV here?

Ann

A search found this. This surprised me because I thought it took a number of people to round on someone; but I was wrong.

quote:

If you round on someone or something, you suddenly turn and attack them

The fox rounded on its pursuers.
figurative: The Prime Minister rounded on his critics with a very forceful speech.

(Definition of round on sb/sth phrasal verb from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

This is an invitation for comments by the non-North American visitors to this thread. My husband and I have been commenting recently on the number of distinctively American phrases used on British TV programs that we watch regularly here on public television, whether they were produced more than 30 years ago, as "Are You Being Served," or much more recently, as "Inspector Lewis." We've attributed this to the ubiquitousness of Hollywood films and, now also, US TV shows.

This is rather clear in AYBS, particularly in comments by Mrs. Slocombe (the late Mollie Sugden), who, not surprisingly, is fascinated by film stars. This topic came up, though, on a recent broadcast of "Inspector Lewis." I think the first phrase Lewis and his colleague James Hathaway discussed was, "not worth a hill of beans." Now, I had never thought this was peculiarly American, but then I never thought much about it at all. Is it - American, that is? I could find no such attribution when I did a search.

More interesting, perhaps, given the discussion above about cricket terms, is the adoption of a number of baseball phrases in the U.K. and probably elsewhere. I can't now recall which one in particular was discussed on "Inspector Lewis." It was either,"can't get to first base," or "stepping up to the plate." I believe it was the former. I subsequently found a UK website which discussed this issue and how such phrases are frequently misunderstood by those without familiarity with "the American pastime." Unfortunately, I can't now locate that particular site.

However, I did find this one, which has a section which lists a number of baseball terms that have entered the British vocabulary. Others listed include such phrases as, "a ballpark figure" and "throw someone a curve." The book referenced there is probably one mentioned here previously, though I didn't look.

I'd be interested in what you have to say about the spread of baseball terminology, if not the game itself, especially since, despite the cold weather in the eastern US, it is, indeed, World Series time.

My guess is that many of these baseball terms derive from "management-speak" ... words that have filtered down into general use from American-written text books on management.

(Back in the 1980s for several years Channel 4 did programmes of highlights from the World Series. I can remember being captivated by the Mets victory over the Red Socks in 1986 or 1987. I wish they still did these programmes.)

"Not worth a hill of beans" would, over here, be an obvious "borrow" from the movie Casablanca, surely? (I don't watch this series, but are they trying to make Lewis interesting by giving him a movie obsession, like Morse's with opera?)

I'm more familiar with "row of beans", but whether choosing a row rather than a hill is English self-effacement or just mis-remembering, I don't know. At least it isn't five magic beans (don't anyone dare to say "Oh yes it is!" just yet).

quote:

Originally posted by PatrickLondon:
"I don't watch this series, but are they trying to make Lewis interesting by giving him a movie obsession, like Morse's with opera?"

I don't really think so. Lewis' and Hathaway's conversations have focused more on language than films. I can't recall if they even mentioned "Casablanca."

Actually, now that Lewis is on his own - that is, without Morse - he seems to have evolved into a more interesting and nuanced character. Last week's episode here revealed that particularly when Lewis was challenged for being excessively private. I think the series is quite well done.

Ann

When referring to the city of Milano:

UK pronunciation: Mee-lan
US pronunication: mi-lan

I just read two British novels in which I noticed the word "prevaricate" or "prevaricator" used in a sense that seemed to mean "procrastinate." In the US, "prevaricate" AFAIK always has the sense of lying or stretching the truth. Does it have a slightly different meaning in the UK?

- Roz

quote:

When referring to the city of Milano:

UK pronunciation: Mee-lan
US pronunication: mi-lan

Not sure I agree. I've been trying this out for a couple of minutes and getting others to say it as well and I would say (from a family of standard RP English accents) that we don't say it the first way.

Either equally stressed syllables (as the second way)or the second way with a slightly longer second syllable. But not Mee as the first part in either case.

Roz: it's a mix! We use it to mean either delaying action(ie procrastinate) with devious intent(possibly lying or putting off the scent) or saying something that is not an outright lie but wanders around the truth or hesitates to put something clearly.(Is pussyfooting a common term in the US?)

quote:

"prevaricate"

I think this is an English misuse. I'm not sure whether it has now become an acceptable use or is still to be regarded as a solecism. The "procrastinate" meaning does not appear in my 10-year-old Shorter OED. (Looking for guidance on this matter I googled for "prevaricate solecism" and was led to this page, which looks like very fruitful ground for pedants!)

Regarding "Milan" is it perhaps the case that the difference is in the pronunciation of the second syllable ... most English people would say "lan" as in "land" whereas some Americans might say "larn" or "lahn" as in the way we in England say "Flanders"?

quote:

I'm not sure whether it has now become an acceptable use or is still to be regarded as a solecism

I think it's in that grey area between increasingly common use (and certainly at least two editors of the novels Roz cited have happily let it go - the interesting decisions of modern publishing editing is another subject entirely!) and what the standard reference books say. I wouldn't be suprised to see it as an offically accepted useage (with disparaging footnote) next time around.

You are right about the English short 'a' for Milan, although held for a bit longer than the first syllable (a long short, if you will!). Not a 'dahling' a, at any rate.

I wouldn't, myself, prevaricate or procrastinate about someone using the former to mean the latter. If you don't know what it means and can't be bothered to check, don't use it, that's what I say.

Harrumph.

quote:

Is pussyfooting a common term in the US?

Yes, one might say "pussyfooting around the truth," but I would not use it to mean a delaying tactic.

Thanks for all the insights on prevaricate / procrastinate. I don't think I have ever seen the two words confused in the US, so that's why I was wondering if it was British usage.

The first book where I saw it was a recent Alexander McCall Smith. I've taken it back to the library so I don't have the exact quote. But I was sure in the context it really meant procrastinate, since it referred to putting off making a phone call. Now I can't remember the other place I saw it, but it may be the new A.S. Byatt (The Children's Book). I'm going to see if I can find that, and check it, as it would surprise me if she misused the term. Maybe the context in that case was more ambiguous.

- Roz

Hadn't looked at this thread in a long time...

I know MEE-lahn as the Italian pronunciation of the Milan soccer team. I've known, roughly, MILL-an as the pronunciation to be used in Shakespeare's The Tempest.

The use of prevaricate to mean procrastinate goes back some way. The 1996 edition of Fowler (Modern Engllish Usage) says: "prevaricate ... does not mean 'to delay' though it is sometimes so used by confusion with procrastinate ...".

However, the usage is not mentioned in the 1973 edition of Gowers (The Complete Plain Words). It is the sort of thing he would have discussed if he had seen it, so presumably the usage was not common at that time. It is interesting to speculate what he would have said if it had come to his attention; he was sometimes tolerant of changing usage, but was more often keen to preserve useful distinctions (as, for example, in the case of 'infer' used to mean 'imply'.)

(I love browsing Gowers. Doing so now I have chanced upon this in discussing the misuse of 'oral' and 'verbal': "One need not know Latin to remember which is which. No one chooses wrong in 'oral contraceptive' or 'verbal diarrhoea'.")

Panda,

I keep hearing Mee-lan while watching the British announcers referring to the Milan football team. Three announcers all used this pronunciation during the last week or so. Is it peculiar to referencing Milan's football team and just not generally used?

It's more than coincidental that three TV "sport-types" used the same pronunciation, I suspect, since a fraternity can and often does develop its own unique style of language...that's where colloquialisms are most often formed. Cockney and Yorkey (UK) or Cajun and Downeast (US) being common examples.

I cannot recall hearing this pronunciation otherwise, so I withdraw it as "UK-wide."

Jeff. I have never heard this myself. It has always been called Milan with a short 'i', in England, in my experience. but I guess the announcers are trying to sound Italian in their pronunciation and getting the first bit right and second bit wrong? It is probably a case of announcers' affectation that has caught on in that community.

Felicity, I think you're correct - and "affectation" is a better word to describe this than "colloquialism." Showing off their erudition...and getting it incorrect would equate to sports announcers here in the States, too! At least they're trying...

This is just a guess, but it would not surprise me if the first announcer to use that pronunciation was copied by the other two. They are used to seeing lots of names (of players) with unexpected pronunciations.

If I were talking about the Milan soccer team in English, I would pronounce it the Italian way, meaning stressing the first syllable and pronouncing it MEE. If you definitely heard the unstressed syllable pronounced lan as in land, rather than lawn, that's a minor matter.

Again, this just refers to the soccer team, not the city whose local name is Milano. The team is called Milan rather than Milano because it was established by English expats, and that became the Italian pronunciation.

Maybe this will stimulate some discussion.

UK: Oxbridge
US: Ivy League

I don't know if there may be an equivalent to (university context)

UK: Red brick

This is a subject extremely close to home in our house at the moment - suffice to say fingernails are being bitten to the quick this week

I'm not sure that Redbrick is a term used or recognised much here anymore . It really refers to the non- Oxford and Cambridge universities built in the major industrial centres such as Manchester, Birmingham etc.,at the beginning of the last century and seen then as the level down from Oxbridge. Most of these are now regarded as venerable institutions in their own right and highly desirable alternatives.

Its meaning got a bit twisted in the post-war 1960s/70s university building boom and seemed to be applied to many of these newer institutions as well,rather pejoratively, implying either a brave new world or brash and of lower standards!).

I used the term to my daughter (the current applicant!) recently and she had no idea what I was talking about.

To confuse matters further, there has been a further subsequent boom in the number of universities, though without much more development as former vocation-oriented polytechincs and further education colleges have gained university status. (The clue is usually that they have the city/town name plus another name ie University of Manchester vs Manchester Metropolitan University (the former Manchester Polytechnic).

I don't know if there is a term to describe 'the rest', anymore. The Russell Group of the big 20 includes Oxbridge and really only seems to be used in the media in reference to funding.

What we do seem to have gained is the use of the word 'uni' in common parlance ie are you off to uni? Traceable straight back to the advent of the Australian soap operas (Neighbours/Home & Away) on British TV