I'm planning to take my 85-year-old mother to Tuscany for a week or two in April or May. She's frail but adventurous. So on the one hand we don't want to rush around or deal with saggy beds, steep stairs or unexpected problems. On the other hand we don't want to be insulated from the abitanti and the campagna in a hotel or resort (nor do we want to pay those big bucks).
I'm mainly focussed on southern Tuscany, but would also consider Chianti or west of Siena as well. Ideally we'd like a 2 bedroom apartment in a scenic rural setting, either a place that provides dinner or that's walking distance from a good, inexpensive restaurant. Also a place that we would be comfortable hanging out in when we don't have the energy for an ambitious day trip.
I'm very tempted by the idea of an agriturismo. I have the impression that some of the smaller ones provide a kind of family-like situation, which would be fine as long as we has some space to ourselves as well (and I do speak a little primitive Italian if needed). For example there's a book about walking in Tuscany and Umbria that mentions a place called "La Croce" near Montalcino, and "Fattoria Voltrona" near San Ginignamo in a way that makes them sound like a great experience. But I don't see these, or many other agriturismo places mentioned on this otherwise incredibly useful, helpful site.
I am going to check out some of the places I've seen mentioned here, though, like La Croce, Podere Lammaccia, Villa Luisa, Il Poggio, Sant'Antonio, Calcione, and a few others. Does anyone have any experience with any of these, or general advice?
General advice here as I have never rented in Toscana (I'm very good at freeloasding off friends ).
When staying on farms or in the country, one issue may be getting around the property just to get into your apartment. I have been to a lot of farms where the car park is a bit of a distance from the front door. You may need to walk over uneven bricks or flagstones etc. Stairs might be well worn etc. You need to ask a lot of questions. And remember that to a family living in the countryside, this is normal circumstances.
I remember walking up to the Rocca d'Orcia one time and being passed by 80 year old men who smoked and looked frail. But they did it every day.
A B&B in a town like Montalcino may be a possibility. Here is a link for a B&B in Montalcino owned by a friend, Annalisa from Costanti winery. I did not see the apartments but she is a nice person. The nice thing about Montalcino is that you never need move to have fun. Or you can visit in the area. There is great shopping and eating.
words of wisdom to live by from Stephen Sondheim's The Frogs {The chorus is singing a prayer to Dionysus...} Dionysius "A hymm to me, the god of wine..." Xanthius (His slave) "I thought you were the god of drama?" Dionysius "I am the god of wine and the god of drama. A little wine will get you thru a lot of drama"
Posts: 4600 | Location: Casa del Fenicottero Rosa, Silver Spring, MD USA | Registered: 06 August 2002
We have stayed at an agrtuissmo near Montalcino that is called La Crociona and and there is also a place called La croce in the same village(it's really not a village just a group of building along the same path. As far as I know La Croce does not have anyone on site and all the rooms are up at least on flight of stairs but there is a very good restaurant called La Crocina. La Crociona (we have stayed there several times, and will be there with our 10 year old grandson the end of March)has a two bedroom apartment but you do have to climb about 15 steps. The owners are wonderful and do speak English.Even if your mom can't walk far there is lots to see in the area that I don't think would be too difficult for her. Let me know if I can be of any more help.
Posts: 519 | Location: Wichita, Ks. USA | Registered: 08 October 2002
quote:Originally posted by rxb: I'm planning to take my 85-year-old mother to Tuscany for a week or two in April or May. She's frail but adventurous. So on the one hand we don't want to rush around or deal with saggy beds, steep stairs or unexpected problems. On the other hand we don't want to be insulated from the abitanti and the campagna in a hotel or resort (nor do we want to pay those big bucks).
One thought about agriturismo. Most of these structires are placed in the middle of nowhere. There is a farm, with a few bedrooms or apartments and maybe a restaurant, and that's all. It is true that you get to live with the family, sometimes. But if your mother is really adventurous as you say, she may want to be able to take a little walk by herself, having a coffee at some bar or just to breath a little bit of fresh air. IMHO an apartment in a village may be better. Also, I would try to choose a not too small village, some place that, while not being a city, can still afford to have a doctor, just in case she has some minor health problem (which may occur with the travelling and the unusual food).
That's a very sensible advice, Alice. I am a "little" adventurous myself and it is more likely that at that age I will be the one taking my daughter to Italy for a nice vacation, not to a middle of nowhere, that's for sure
"Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza..."
"I sing to life, to its beauty, to each of its wounds and each of its caresses..."
Posts: 1831 | Location: New York, New York | Registered: 21 December 2002
Doru, what about our favorite Lucca? From there you can train to Viareggio, also level. Pienza, as you mentioned, is almost flat, but is almost too small, too. Small city or large village sounds like a good choice.
Posts: 2054 | Location: Suburban Philadelphia | Registered: 08 July 2002
quote:Originally posted by Doru: This is half-reply, half-question: I can't think of flat, really easy to walk towns in Chianti or in Northern Tuscany in general.
But what about Pienza or San Quirico d'Orcia? Are they flat enough, because otherwise they would fit RXB Mom's needs.
I recall that some parts of San Quirico are hilly but the main part of town, including two nice garden/parks is fairly flat. Buonconvento, between Montalcino and Siena is one of the flattest in the area. There are plenty of senior Italians in the streets and cafes there if RXB's Mom speaks Italian.
Posts: 414 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: 07 March 2003
Thanks for the replies I've gotten so far. I'm already getting some good ideas from you. As much as my mother loves the countryside, you may well be right that it would be too isolating for her. If we were in a town, those moments when we weren't going somewhere or other would give her the chance to soak in more than the scenery - get a chance to get attuned to the rhythms of a community. I wonder if a small hotel might even be better in some ways than renting a room. It would make it easier to stay in two or three different places. And since she's starting to have second thoughts about whether she's even up to the trip at all now, it might be reassuring if I can scope out where the local medico can be found. Four days in Pienza, four days in Lucca and four days in an agriturismo?
By the way, do you think Lucca would be easier and less pressured than Siena? I've been to neither.
I continue to watch your responses with interest. Meanwhile I have to see if I can overcome my mother's qualms about committing to this. She's always wanted to travel, but she's never had an opportunity to go to Europe and I think she'll love Tuscany.
quote:By the way, do you think Lucca would be easier and less pressured than Siena? I've been to neither.
Yes, without pause. Siena is beautiful beautiful but it is hilly hilly, and there are many visitors. Lucca is lovely but much more sedate (and flat.) Your mother would find much of interest in both, but Lucca is a great deal easier to get around and smaller in the historic center.
Posts: 2054 | Location: Suburban Philadelphia | Registered: 08 July 2002
quote:Originally posted by rxb: ... And since she's starting to have second thoughts about whether she's even up to the trip at all now, it might be reassuring if I can scope out where the local medico can be found.[...] I continue to watch your responses with interest. Meanwhile I have to see if I can overcome my mother's qualms about committing to this. She's always wanted to travel, but she's never had an opportunity to go to Europe and I think she'll love Tuscany.
Is your mother aware of your consulting this forum for ideas about where to go, what to do, etc. or are you commenting to her the responses you are getting, etc.? I hope not, because that will make her exhausted before even getting on the plane. I would, I know that. Just an idea. Reason this thought crossed my mind is your remark about her being a little bit adventurous. She may not like to know in advance too many details about this trip. It's better to give her a surprise, surprise!!!
"Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza..."
"I sing to life, to its beauty, to each of its wounds and each of its caresses..."
Posts: 1831 | Location: New York, New York | Registered: 21 December 2002
quote:Originally posted by rxb: And since she's starting to have second thoughts about whether she's even up to the trip at all now, it might be reassuring if I can scope out where the local medico can be found.
In the most touristy areas, there is also a doctor appointed specifically to deal with tourist patients. This is surely true for Lucca, and probably for Pienza too. Also, I would just drop the agriturismo stay OR the Pienza stay. For an elder it can be really tiring to move from one place to the other (I have an array of grandparents, I know what I am talking about ).
No specific recommendations for either towns or properties, since my knowledge of Tuscany is very limited. A few comments that I hope will be useful just the same, since central Italy is not all Tuscany, and I'm beginning to know central Italy fairly well.
1. Given your criteria, expect to pay not exactly big bucks, but tourism prices. I agree with the trend of the board, that you and your Mom will be staying in a ground-floor apartment in a flat area of a small town (less likely, because fewer shops and restaurants: a true village), with parking close by.
2. You must not be steered away from the beautiful small towns of Tuscany that are, despite splendid Florence and Siena and Lucca, its crowning joy. People will tell you that they're all on top of hills and unwalkable. The very same people, if knowledgeable about Tuscany, will tell you, upon being pressed for reflection, that quite a few of those small towns, though perched on hills with commanding views of countryside, have sizable flat chunks within the walls. Fellow SlowTravelers, please put on thinking caps and see if you can come up with somewhere other than Lucca. To give you an idea of what I mean, and of the odds, I refer you to this page of mine, not on Tuscany unfortunately but neighbouring Umbria, which covers these accessibility and walkability questions in details for about 75 towns: quite a few hilltowns are flat.
Copying from a previous post of mine -- the question comes up from time to time -- from my limited first-hand knowledge of Tuscany, here are the "flat" places I'm coming up with; as I said, others will surely add many more, and more suitable ones:
hilltowns: Volterra (mostly), S. Gimignano, Empoli, Chiusi (upper town)
others: Florence, (mostly), Pisa, Sovana (although admittedly about half the interest of the place lies just outside the town in Etruscan tombs requiring a good deal of clambering), Grosseto, Orbetello
3. I'm with Westsider: plan quietly and, like my grandmother used to say, speak not before the unveiling. Your Mom will surely trust her son to give her a grand trip to the right place.
Note to Bill: Grosseto is definitely flat, but I don't think that it meets the touristic specifications for most travelers.
I would weigh in again in favor of a small town rather than an agriturismo in the countryside. Pienza, where I know there are several very economical apartments in town, would meet the needs outlined in "rxb"'s posts. The countryside is right outside the walls of Pienza and it is very easy to reach a number of restaurants, bars and cafes in the town.
San Quirico d'Orcia will also serve and will be less touristed thatn Pienza. And Pitigliano is quite level in the centro, but it is rather remote to use as a base for sightseeing in Tuscany.
Even if some hill towns have a flat "centro", there are usually hills or grades present in order to get around the town--for example, Massa Marittima or Orvieto.
Grosseto is a nice town with medieval churches, frescoes, fortifications, good restaurants, plenty of little shops, fair parking, etc. It's not your "quaint" little hilltown however, and those in search of the iconic will discard it. More to the point, it's not central, or rather the pocket of land it's central to, is not terrific, so I agree; mentioning it only as an example of a place I know to be flat.
I also agree with Pitigliano, which is not on my list of flat places at all; and despite being fascinating in several respects -- I like it -- it's also a spooky and depressing place.
The question is, where can one find an apartment surrounded by flat space within the normal walking range of an adventurous old lady that also has street life of interest to her. Orvieto, if it were in Tuscany, would be a definite candidate; I list it among the sort-of-flat, since as a whole the town includes steps, a long sloping section and several smaller ones -- yet there is a large chunk of it flat as a board, with restaurants, pottery shops with beautiful stuff, caffés, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Thayer: People will tell you that they're all on top of hills and unwalkable. The very same people, if knowledgeable about Tuscany, will tell you, upon being pressed for reflection, that quite a few of those small towns, though perched on hills with commanding views of countryside, have sizable flat chunks within the walls.
Pistoia is almost flat. It is equally distant from Florence and Lucca. It is close to Montecatini and Musummano Terme (Monsummano has two hot thermal caves that may help your mom if she has a good heart and bad legs). Just a bit further, there are Pisa, Viareggio (beach town, with a long, flat "passeggiata" with lots of shops on the seaside) and Bologna, all very easy to reach by train and car both. By car only you can get to Siena in a little more than one hour; from Pistoia you can also visit Northern Chianti area by car quite easily. Also, the town is absolutely not crowded, with very little tourism but some restaurants and nice bars on the main piazza, a lot of medieval architecture. Also, being very close to the Appennini, it is nicely cool in summer, and in case it turns too hot, you can still take an easy drive up Porrettana road to Passo di Collina, where you can enjoy some fresher air. BUT. Pistoia has little touristic structures, few hotels (Can Bianco is probably the best and on the cheap side) and very few B&B. There are some agriturismo on the nearby mountains and hills, though, but than we are back to the "there is nothing around it and it's hilly" problem.
Towns in Chianti which are definitely not flat for an 86 years old:
Castellina Radda Greve Panzano
Sure, you can limit you world to about 100 m. here and there, but as soon as you try to enlarge the explored area, you end up with a hill.
Besides, one never really knows where the accomodation is. For example, we stayed in Castellina, where Via Ferrucio is reasonably flat, then turns into Via Trento e Trieste, which is also reasonably flat. That's it. Everything else in town requires some climbing.
As well, I am not sure San Gimignano is really that flat for a frail 86 year old.
Posts: 5685 | Location: Toronto | Registered: 26 May 2002
Good advice about not scaring my mother off with lots of questions and options - that's pretty much the route I've been taking. I did just ask her, however, what her relative interest in being in a beautiful rural setting was as opposed to spending time in towns and villages, and she seems definitely more keen on the former. While I did say she's adventurous, and while she did grow up in NYC, she's always loved the country. She really loved spending part of every year for a decade on a very beautiful, isolated hilltop property in rural Virginia (while my father was still alive and mobile), where she got to know the handful of local neighbors. In her youth she spent a lot of her non-working time going on bicycle and canoe trips with friends.
The other factor is that she really doesn't have a lot of energy and stamina anymore. Add to the mix unpredictible digestive problems, chemical sensitivities, heart arhythmia, and juggling the side effects of medications, and the aggravating effects of jetlag.... So I really do think that staying either in a small rural village or on a farm might be best after all - as long as it's not too far from other places of interest (where we could find a doctor as well). And as long as the lodgings we're planning to stay in are not too much of an unknown. Then when she does have the energy we can get a dose of towns like Montalcino and Pienza, of an abbey, and at some point, a daytrip to whichever city is in reasonable range - Lucca, Siena or Pisa.
I do think that as we try to zero in on the right location we want to look for a place with beautiful surroundings and opportunities to glimpse ordinary quotidian life. For the most part the big-draw treasures of art and architecture in this case are not worth the tourist hustle and bustle that go with them.
Again I appreciate all the thoughtful advice. This site makes such a difference!
There's effectively no difference between the accommodation represented by agriturismi or apartments - all that matters is location - what you need is an apartment on the ground floor of a farm house that has some flat ground around it - quiet, nice view, interesting life around you. Walking the steets of Florence, which are "flat", is just as exhausting as strolling around the streets of a Chianti hill town. In addition, many agriturismi are effectively B&B and will do you a good dinner as well. Look through the list on www.greve-in-chianti.com and send off some e-mails.
After getting some good ideas from members on this site and on this board (and on this thread, thank you), I did a little more research on my own, and ended up booking a flight and one week at Sant'Antonio near Montepulciano. A few of you were strongly urging me to go for an apartment in a town. I was pulled in that direction, and I very seriously considered Il Poggiolo in Montepulciano. But I think Sant'Antonio fits the bill very well for this particular trip - especially since we'll have five more days to go somewhere else.
And for those five days I actually am ready to take that good advice: after a relaxed week of gazing at the scenery from a hilltop and whetting her appetite with short day trips at her own pace, I think my mother will be ready for a few days of experiencing town life. I'm mulling over options in Pienza, Montalcino, Lucca and Barga. If anyone can authoritatively tell me that Barga is too hilly, I'm ready to rule that out in an instant. My only misgivings about Lucca are that for only 4 nghts we can't get an apartment, and so will probably have to pay for two hotel rooms, which will almost definitely be up at least one flight of stairs. Plus it sounds like we might have to park a way off from wherever we stay. Still, it might be worth it.
The b&b rooms in Montalcino that Dean suggested sound possible, as do Hotel Il Giglio and the auxillary rooms they let. But maybe Montalcino would involve too much climbing?
There are three interesting-sounding possibilities for rooms/small apartments in Pienza: Il Giardino Segreto, La Antica Locanda, and Il Oliviero. Do any of you know about any of these?
Topic Closed
).
