In the recent issue of Newsweek, Julia Baird has a column entitled "Is Happiness Overrated?" In the article, Baird discusses a recent survey that found that despite three decades of economic growth, Americans are no happier, American women even less so. Might not be such a surprise to some of us, but the kicker for me was her line:
"The broader point remains—while Europeans are growing happier, especially Italians, Americans are not."
What is the secret to the Europeans' (esp the Italians') happiness? I have my own theories but would love to hear what you think.
Perhaps it's working fewer hours and spending more time with family and friends. Not to mention the healthier vacation policies.
My theory? Most of these "happiest countries" rankings are pretty unverifiable. What are the benchmarks? What are the controls? Who do they ask? What is the definition of happiness? Doesn't it depend on one's expectations and feelings of entitlement, as well as on one's actual circumstances? (For example, people who make high salaries are often dissatisfied with their salaries, because they're comparing themselves with people who make even more.)
Anyway, not to burst anybody's "dolce vita" bubble, but in the best-known happiness surveys, Italy ranks nowhere near the top. Famously (or notoriously), the winner is usually Denmark! In fact, I've seen happiness surveys conducted by academic social scientists in which the US ranks far above Italy.
Denmark's ranking is usually ascribed to a combination of things like high social cohesion, great social services, relatively high level of economic equality, good government, etc. It's certainly not the weather.
Posts: 821 | Location: San Francisco Bay Area | Registered: 28 June 2006
I believe that the notion that Italians are particularly happy is not completely true. When I first started visiting Italy I thought that too, but I now believe many American tourists see Italy through Rose colored glasses(I'm sure I still do). I believe that it is generally true that Italians are an expressive and emotional people. They are also generally polite, generous and courteous to strangers too, so often unless you know an Italian well you won't know their troubles. Also many vacationers have most of their dealings with people involved in the tourist industry who are trained very well. Take a look at Italian literature, cinema and the like and you will also see a reflection of suffering and sadness in the culture. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE ITALY AND ITALIANS. I just think that they complex and have troubles and carry burdens of their own.
I think maybe the use of the word "happiness" is what strikes me as being little off. There is a difference between happiness and contentment. While Italians may not be happier per se, I think they are, overall, more content with life.
As one friend told me when she had an opportunity to move to the US and didn't take it, "Sure I could make more money, but I would lose my family and my community and my history. I couldn't be happy like that. I like my life just fine the way it is."
There are struggles and sadnesses and complexities, as Matt points out, but to me it has always seemed that there is just a deeper sense of contentment amidst it all, as well.
I think it is really hard to generalize, and would say that things like happiness or even contentment would be hard to gauge in places like Milan or in Torino, where upward mobility and money and pressure probably equal any other major European city.
In the smaller towns and cities, like where I live, I think people seem quite content with the rhythm of life, with having family and friends close. But honestly, I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania and I would say that people there are pretty content too.
It is not always so easy to live here, and people do rely on each other to get by and one hand definitely washes the other.
But in "general" I would say that Europeans pay less attention to upward mobility and financial competition than Americans, and therefore are maybe a bit more content with the "content" of their lives.
Our Italian relatives and friends are all in either country settings or in smaller towns, so can't speak to the city dwellers.
However, over the many years that we have been visiting with these folks, a few things stand out that makes me side with the idea of contentment (or, call it happiness).
Medical treatment seems to be readily available and affordable. We have seen some of my wife's elderly cousins go through their final illnesses and our experiences in the hospitals when visiting them left us with very positive impressions of the level of care.
When my wife broke a tooth this year, it was very easy to get a dental appointment and the cost of treatment was dirt cheap compared to what we pay at home.
Politics....as much as a few of the cousins enjoy yelling at the TV set when a prime minister or some other dignitary appears with whom they differ in beliefs, I have never (make that NEVER) seen anything that even comes remotely close to the levels of polarization and demonization that we, ourselves, live through.
Religion....much more casual and far less polarizing than what we have...a source of support rather than socially divisive.
Finances....this is a tricky one. Our relatives are all land rich, but I'm never sure where a lot of their money income is produced. We have other friends who are in business (a jeweler in Empoli; a bagno owner in Viareggio; two hotel owners in Lucca) and they all seem to do extremely well and never utter a word about taxes. They have complained a lot about the rise in the cost of living associated with the Euro, however.
Family.....marry late; stay close to home (or live three generations in a house); have only one or two children...seems to be the way of life and it seems to have far more benefits than drawbacks.
Bottom line to me is that I don't know if Italians are happier or not, but I do know that I will be happy when I'm able to spend more than a month a year there (counting down to my wife's retirement).
Posts: 722 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: 22 May 2006
There is a difference between "happy" and "cheerful". And then there is exactly how one defines "happy"?
On whole Americans live in a more stratified society than many in Europe. In America it is generally believed that one can move up the social strata by hard work. We tolerate so much stratification because we believe that we (or our children can move up). There is some data that shows that this is no longer the case, but it is not definative. Seeing the big difference between what you have and the upper crust have, can lead to perceived unhappiness.
In describing my Italo-American relatives (the ones from generations zero and one, I'm generation 2), I would say especially of generation zero, that they are/were a happy lot but really not very cheerful. They are jsut not a real smiley bunch; expressive but not cheerful. To me the real Italians that I have met on my travels in Italy seem to fit into the same mold.
Posts: 4355 | Location: St Paul, MN | Registered: 10 February 2006
"Happiness" seems to me like such a two-dimensional word; certainly an odd thing to base a study on.
"Satisfaction" is the term I hear quite often as something to be sought after, and think for myself is more appropriate; a profound appreciation for human relationship is what I witness (and experience, and enjoy).
Then, when stuff happens that makes you less "happy," you are still fulfilled -- even when you want to take out the guys who are making the rules.
I honestly don't know enough Italians or Europeans to make any sort of generalizations about whether they are happier or more content, so I'm properly chastised against imagining that perhaps they are. You can rest assured, however, that I'm not about to fly off and buy an olive farm in the middle of Italy, like the English couple recently did.
I wholeheartedly agree with Dragonpat that the American ethic is that individuals can determine their own economic fate, when in reality there is very little room for individuals to become "rich" and the disparity between the belief and the reality can make some of us very discontent indeed. I also agree with many of the points made by Alpinista; there again I would point to the difference in our collective values.
BUT, I do think about my life quite a bit these days (is this a mid-life "crisis"?) Am I content with my life as it is? How can I change things so I'm doing less of what I don't like, and more of what I do like? Don't you want a 37-hour work week, the month of August off? Don't you groan every time you hear a news report about how Americans work longer hours than nearly every other worker in any developed country? Doesn't it make sense to re-think our values if they make us "unhappy" or less contented than others?
Do Italian parents rush to work, back home, to soccer practice, back to school night, and try to get a decent dinner on the table and sit down altogether in between? If Italians are more content (and I sincerely hope they are), and they have figured out a more balanced way of life, then I say bring it on. I, for one, want to know.
This is a subject I often think about. I think that happiness is subjective first of all. So, speaking from my perspective I think that the people I am in contact with are not happy. I live in a suburb of a large northeastern city. In this world the houses are never big enough, the kids are never smart enough, the job never pays enough, etc ... When I was growing up in neighborhood of a large northeastern city life was different. Everyone had a similar house, dad's went to work and mom's stayed home. Dinner was a family affair every night at the same time. Family all lived close, and neighbors were friends. As a child one didn't dare misbehave, because the neighbor lady 2 or 3 blocks away knew your name and family. Life went on and most people didn't have much money, but there was always company. Extended families saw each other often, neighbors stopped by for coffee. People weren't so alone. I believe they were happier. Now in my suburban lifestyle, I rarely see my neighbors. What one sees are garage doors opening and closing as parents rush off to work and to bring the kids to all the activities. Everyone needs an edge to get ahead. So, the first time I went to Italy I felt like I had gone home, or at least stepped back in time. Sure people work and life has its complications. But, what I see is a sense of camaraderie. Anywhere in Italy I go I see people make time to walk together, to sit and talk. Just think of the evening passeggiata. So in my opinion I believe that people are happier. Simply because there is still a strong sense of neighborhood and extended family. There's still traditions that are followed. Life has a simpler plan.
Originally posted by deb t: ...because there is still a strong sense of neighborhood and extended family. There's still traditions that are followed. Life has a simpler plan.
I don't think that Italians are happier because they do La Dolce Vita, that is a movie thing, it exist? I don't think it ever existed even in the 60es.. As Deb said, we have to consider what "happiness" is. So I tell you what it is for me.
I have lost the keys to my front door at least one year ago... never replaced. At times I find eggs in my fridge, or baskets with potatoes or whatever share of crop my neighbours are picking up at the moment. MAtteo and Francesca -my kids- can walk and play in the park on the other side of Cortons, alone, safely, any thime they want. My helpers at the shop have a great opinion of me and me of them, we have a fun, but productive working anbiance -I never wake up saying , S*** gotta go to work even today. I can spend my afternoon with the kids while someone else cleans up my house. My hubby, which cannot work, due to his health issues, and I have a great relationship, we have discussions at times, but come on who doesn't. When I have been offered to enlarge the shop and opening them in partnership in NY - and a restaurant in Houston, mind you- or the direction of a store in another big place in US, I felt like I didn't want to go. Surely I wpould have made more money, but my family life would have been completely screwed up. I have my family arpund me, when I need them, and at times also when I don't, they have me when they need me, and when they don't. I have my friends I can count on. Always. I come home and both of my kitties and my dogs want to share their time and love with me, even if I don't want to, BUT they are not my only friends and company. Marino has just brought me a coffee with a cookie.
So, I am telling that maybe I don't have a lot of money, and I can't have luxurious vacationd in the Maldivas, but I feel all in all a lot more content, and allow me happy, than many of the people I met in mt store.
University of CA psychologist Sonja Lyubomirsky is one of the top researchers on "happiness" as defined as a sense of satisfaction with life and says that her findings show "where you live, how much money you make, your job title and even your health have surprisingly small effects on your satisfaction with life. The biggest factor appears to be strong personal relationships."
If this is true, than I can believe that Italians tend to rate higher than Americans. In the States we generally put more weight on where we live, our salary, and our job title where Italians generally are more interested in maintaining close with friends and family.
This is a story about my son that might help illustrate the general tendencies of the Italian character.
I was always nagging Patrick that he had to do well at school. When he was five he asked me why the teacher hadn’t given him a good mark for his homework one day as he had done his best etc. I looked at the work and said he would have to ask his teacher directly because it seemed ok to me.
He went away looking sad but came back about 20 mins later with a wide grin. He told me that he knew why nothing was written at the end of the page, he said that in his opinion his work had be sooooooooooooo good that the teacher hadn’t know what to say
Politics....as much as a few of the cousins enjoy yelling at the TV set when a prime minister or some other dignitary appears with whom they differ in beliefs, I have never (make that NEVER) seen anything that even comes remotely close to the levels of polarization and demonization that we, ourselves, live through.
Religion....much more casual and far less polarizing than what we have...a source of support rather than socially divisive.
Personally I find articles like this incredibly belittling to the Italians. If one were to talk about certain other (unamable) cultures this way it would be politically incorrect but Italy is there for us all to beat on and imagine the way we want it to be. Perhaps it is just a way to sell a book. Italy has become our favorite reality show.
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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jonathan,
One thought that I had while reflecting on this is that life in our village in Italy is a lot like the life I led in 1950's West Virginia. As pointed out in an earlier post, the neighbors knew who all the kids were and what they were doing; food and conversation were in abundant supply and readily shared; illnesses brought compassion and support from all. Maybe what we see and enjoy in parts of Italy is what we remember (or have been told) about life in a nicer time in the United States?
When we first started staying at the family house, our kids were small (really small...1 and 4). The old ladies in the village were all over our little guy (who had blonde hair back then). One of the cousins demanded that she take our older son to the school to play soccer with the other kids. When my wife registered some concern, the answer was basically, "There is one road in and one road out; I'll be at the playground with him; your cousin Angioletta lives at the end of one road; your cousin Milena lives at the other end; your cousin Luciano lives next to the school....what's going to happen?" As the years went by, we sent both sons over the hill and down the trail to the school's soccer field in the dark and they kept coming back (something we celebrated when they were little...not so much when they became teenagers).
To get back on point about this topic, our house in Italy is on the side of a hill overlooking the valley where the rest of the village is. All we ever hear coming from that soccer field are happy voices and all we ever hear from the houses down in the village are the sounds of adult conversations, laughter, and music....and we are thrilled to be part of it when we go wandering out to visit.....don't know if Italy has an equivalent to Norman Rockwell, but life in Tempagnano comes pretty close to his visions of a happy existence.
Posts: 722 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: 22 May 2006
Originally posted by dragonpat: ...On whole Americans live in a more stratified society than many in Europe. In America it is generally believed that one can move up the social strata by hard work. We tolerate so much stratification because we believe that we (or our children can move up). .....
What makes you believe it's not the same here in Italy?? hard work will pay off ANYWHERE in the world and are you really sure that the higher up the social strata the happier one is??
In my opinion, we are happier because we still enjoy the simple things in life... because we'll use our iPhone to send our friends pictures of the wonderful "Spaghetti allo scoglio" we are enjoying in the small trattoria near the harbour of the small village noone talks about in the tourist guides...
I don't think that Italians are happier because they do La Dolce Vita, that is a movie thing, it exist? I don't think it ever existed even in the 60es..
Every night I traipse around in my neighborhood fountain, in my astronomical décolleté, don't you all?
quote:
I have my family arpund me, when I need them, and at times also when I don't, they have me when they need me, and when they don't. I have my friends I can count on. Always.
You may be onto something here… Many European societies do facilitate a solid social support net.
I don't think that Italians are happier because they do La Dolce Vita, that is a movie thing, it exist? I don't think it ever existed even in the 60es..
Every night I traipse around in my neighborhood fountain, in my astronomical décolleté, don't you all?
quote:
I have my family arpund me, when I need them, and at times also when I don't, they have me when they need me, and when they don't. I have my friends I can count on. Always.
You may be onto something here… Many European societies do facilitate a solid social support net.
Oh, I am sorry I didn't get back sooner, I was just walking in the park fountain while drinking prosecco and singin with a guy that remarkably looks like a very young version of Marcello Mastroianni, or Raul Bova -one or the other will do ;-) - sorry.
I have been thinking about this thread and about what Robert said:
quote:
If you have to ask what Happiness is you are not happy
Happiness and its definition are highly influenced by culture, including national culture, regional culture and family culture. In turn our culture influences what we do in order to achieve happiness, in a background of resources that our different societies hotwire our life with. Maybe a happy Italian strikes a Bougainvillean (just to pick a nationality) as despairing, and vice versa.
The different definitions notwithstanding, I think the soceity and the government policies in many European countries help eliminate everyday stress, which indirectly help construct happiness (giving the citizens more leisure, better health, more outing possibilities).
For example, my life does not have the 2 mega stress factors: - I have no commute. - I have no healthcare worries. Those two things alone make me think I must have been an abject martyr in my forelife, to be so blessed in this life. (I am reluctant even to point out these things, for fear that The Big Guy Upstairs would punish me for gloating.)
In addition, my city/society/workplace are all run in a way as to be leisure-minded.
My number one worry is that Alessandra and I seem to be traipsing in different fountains but with the same guy… (see my fountain outfit: my vertiginous décolleté)
Happiness and its definition are highly influenced by culture, including national culture, regional culture and family culture.
Although I am not one who looks foremost to scientific research for answers, it always intrigues me to check what the latest studies say.
The evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller has stated that :
"The "usual suspects" in explaining individual differences in happiness have almost no effect. A person's age, sex, race, income, geographic location, nationality, and education level have only trivial correlations with happiness, typically explaining less than 2% of the variance. An important exception is that hungry, diseased, oppressed people in developing nations tend to be slightly less happy — but once they reach a certain minimum standard of calorie intake and physical security, further increases in material affluence do not increase their happiness very much."
and :
"Individuals still differ somewhat in their happiness, but these differences are extremely stable across the lifespan, and are almost entirely the result of heritable genetic differences (as shown by David Lykken's and Auke Tellegen's studies of identical twins reared apart.)"
That said, when you're on holiday in Italy everything and everyone looks happier...
Posts: 171 | Location: Israel | Registered: 21 July 2007
What makes you believe it's not the same here in Italy?? hard work will pay off ANYWHERE in the world and are you really sure that the higher up the social strata the happier one is??
I was not implying that Italians live in a NON-stratified society. It is jsut a matter of degree. I have read several articles in the Wall Street Journal that there have been studies that EU member nations (I am guessing including Italy) has less social stratification than in the US currently and that social mobility to higher strata was actually greater in European societies than in current American society.
There were also statistics that American executives makes something like 370 times the average wage while European (probably includingh Italy) and Japanese executives only make something like 50-100 times the average wage. I would have to look up the reference for the exact numbers.
It's a philosophical point about money and happiness that has been debated probably since money was invented. maybe money can't make you happy but at least the rich don't have to worry about money. But I am sure that these poor people in my home town of Detroit wish that they had at least enough money to bury or cremate their dead relatives http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/0...my/_morgue/index.htm or the 30% of Americans that don't have health insurance wish that they had enough money to be covered; lack of health insurance has been sited in several studies as leading to shorter life spans. Being unable to to do the right thing for one's family members and living less long could be a factor in Happiness, especially when you can SEE that others not so far away don't have these little problems plus a lot more.
Posts: 4355 | Location: St Paul, MN | Registered: 10 February 2006
In my opinion by how I define happiness-A combination of satisfaction with your life and Joy in the things you are doing NOW a minority of people are happy. Most people will say I'll be happy when..... RR
It's difficult to say if we are happier than others. I meet every day a lot of tourists soooooo happy in Rome because they experience the "touristic circus" made of impressive monuments, comfortable hotels and so on. Tehy have no time to notice the regular life of Rome. Thousands of commuters that every day travel even 100km to reach their office. For example the earthquake in the city of L'Aquila struck us very hard in Rome also because a lot of our colleagues used to came from that city every day, facing a 2 hours trip in order to find a decent job. We have problems, a lot of problems. Not to mention politics and economy. Maybe, what saves us is a different point of view. Generally speaking, we prefer to enjoy our life. We don't care too much if others see us like a winner or a loser, but we do care if we are really enjoying our life or not.
I believe when you don't feel you would really like to do something different or be somewhere else, then you can say you are happy! Health, family, home: that's happiness for me! All the rest, we'll deal with it!
The NY Times had a review today of a book called Connected: The Surprising Power of Our Social Networks and How They Shape Our Lives. The book has gotten a lot of attention lately because of its studies showing how obesity is related to your social network.
But here is something from the review that struck me as related to this discussion:
quote:
... while it’s hardly surprising that emotion can be transmitted from person to person, the authors report that getting a $10,000 raise is less likely to make you happy than having a happy friend is — in fact, the raise is less likely to make you happy than is having a friend who has a friend who has a friend who is happy.
I think most of us would agree that Italians seem to be very social, and generally happy in their circle of friends and family. That happiness, according to this book, is contagious in social networks.
Just as an answer to the poster above--The discussion, while certainly not a "nuts and bolts" one strictly about travel in Italy, does touch on issues relating to life in Italy; and non-Italian's perceptions of Italian life. SlowTrav is about a deeper understanding the destinations we visit, and so the Mods have kept the thread here for the time being.
Now, back to the discussion, and if anyone wishes to comment further, kindly use the Alert button.
Cultural curiosity is one of the top reasons for travel, esp slow travel. This thread, with the input by both Italians and non-Italians, has given us many different opinions, all informative and entertaining. It is the kind of threads that we come to expect and enjoy from ST. Must run now to do my nightly fountain traipsing with Alessandra's guy…
Well, I am a new poster here and this discussion definitely caught my eye. There are a lot of interesting responses here.
My Italian husband and I no longer live in Italy, but we travel back frequently and keep in touch with family and friends. In my experience, Italians are no happier than Americans. In fact, I have seen a decline in the quality of life in Italy in recent years and many Italians I know seem to be extremely pessimistic about the future.
When I first moved to Italy in 1999, I had the "rose-colored glasses" on and I expected the stereotype of traditional, family-loving people who were less consumerist and less materialistic than their American counterparts. Boy was I wrong!
Yes, many Italians remain close to their families of origin, but very few people we know actually go out and make families of their own. The dismal birth rate in Italy speaks to something amiss, right? After all, having a child really is an act of hope and faith.
My assumption that Italy would be less plagued with social problems didn't hold up either. It seems that Italian teens and young people have the same problems with drugs and alcohol that we have here in the States. And one needs to look no further than the graffiti covered walls in every city to see that Italian youth are suffering from angst and alienation.
I have heard many a tourist praise the "simple life" in Italy where money is less important than in America. However, the Italians I know are very materialistic. It is extremely important to them to wear designer clothes, buy all the latest electronic gadgets, and take fancy vacations-- even if it means living at home indefinitely.
I'm sorry if I went off on a bit of a tangent on my first post LOL. And I don't mean to offend anyone. But, in my experience, I just don't see Italians as being happier, more content, or living better than we do here in America. My husband was reluctant to leave Italy initially, but now he would never move back.
And I still do love Italy and Italians,by the way! And there is no place I'd rather spend my vacations.
Lisa, welcome to Slow Trav, and thanks for your contribution to this discussion.
I'm curious ... did you and your husband live in a city or a small town in Italy? It seems that the previous posters from Italy have said that people in the villages have more tightly knit social circles and may be more happy because of that, than those in urban environments.
Actually birth rates usually go down the better off people are.
Italy has had graffiti for a few thousand years I don't know what it shows. Maybe you can't keep us quiet?
I accept there are many label happy people but when people live in 60 to maybe 120sqm apartments it's kind of hard to be materialistic in the North American sense.
Originally posted by Nick z: Actually birth rates usually go down the better off people are.
...
European birth rates have been in steady decline since the end of the 19th century. Infant mortality has also thankfully been in steady decline in the same period. As more children survive infancy, pregnancy frequency declines. Scandinavia and Italy are on the population replacement precipice i.e. not producing enough children to replace their populations. Why this should be so is an interesting, complex and worrying topic.
Didn't an American anthropologist produce the concept of amoral familism to explore Italian attitudes to civic responsibilities in the 30s? The debated connections between morality and happiness go back at least to when Adam was a boy.
I don't know if Italians are happier than anyone else. I wouldn't know how to get a handle on such a large philosophical question. There is something racial about the question that I dislike - it is almost colonial in condescension. You may as well ask who are the righteous. I have friends who like me are sometimes happy and sometimes not so happy.
If anything blights Italy, and one only has to read the independent broadsheets here for confirmation, is the hydra like presence of the black economy and criminal enterprises (estimated at €400bn per annum). Are the shopkeepers and small business owners happy/stoical/discontented in regions under gang control? Read Roberto Saviano for the flipside of the cakebox images.
Posts: 220 | Location: Tuscany | Registered: 08 April 2008
Roz, we lived in a small town where my husband was born and raised.
Nick, I am aware that birth rates go down as people become more affluent and it is generally a good thing. However, there is such a thing as having a birth rate that is too low, when it is no longer able to sustain a population. When so many young people are unwilling or unable (due to finances,etc.)to have families of their own, it does signify a problem.
Graffiti may have been around for a long time, but the sheer amount of it in Italy these days is alarming to me. I've worked with teenagers for years, and happy, well-adjusted kids do not normally go around defacing public and private property. Sorry, but I don't consider it to be free speech.
Hi Lisa, I have to admit that I agree with you. I am in that generation that will probably never have a steady job, so I have a pretty pessimistic attitude.
I also think the quality of life has gone down a bit.
But all in all I think life here is not bad and people are mostly content. Mostly.
Consumerism is no different than in other places (I know only a couple of people who buy designers'clothes)but graffiti are getting worse, and I don't like that either. A change in culture, I guess.
As the original poster, please allow me to sincerely apologize for any insensitivity or racism inherent in my post. I was simply curious about the reference made in the article.
In thinking about this more, I will say that here in urban Oakland, we know our neighbors quite well, and have many close friends with whom we share many meals and bottles of wine. Like others have said, our friends will stand by us always and vice versa.
I have noticed though that our area is very transitional, with many people moving away. My 12-year old daughter has had at least four very close friends move, leaving her feeling a little bereft and lonely at times. And this was before the huge real estate melt down here. Plus our extended family is mostly far away. So while I understand that extended families and knowing the same people and landscapes throughout life can have its downsides, there is a lot to be said for community, continuity and attachment.
Thanks for all who posted.
DDtraveler
PS: While I agree on the issue of graffiti (no matter where it's found) my kids thought the graffiti-covered train car in the Rome Metro was pretty cool. Go figure.
I realize now, from jeremiahisrael's comment, what has made me uncomfortable about this entire topic. Unlike other posters here, I do not find that this sort of discussion leads to deeper cultural understanding. Rather, I find it condescending to discuss another people's "happiness" and something colonial about it as well. But clearly others here on ST disagree. Of course, I don't have to read this thread, but have done so as I am continually surprised at how long it's been going on.
I think if one wants to deepen one's understanding of Italian culture, one would do well to read books about Italian history, or an Italian newspaper, or something written by an Italian. Or even the European version of the NY Times. At any rate, something driven by facts more than opinions.
I do not attribute ANY such motives to the original poster (or any other contributor to this thread), who was motivated by an article in Newsweek that was, for better or worse, discussing the happiness of US inhabitants as found in a national survey.
Actually, if you wish to learn something about Italian culture, one very distinctive thing is that we love to talk about things going on and on. Opinions are perfectly fine for us, and facts are an asset but not a requirement! There are no sensitive topics, so to speak. Nothing of what you would consider "politically correct". We talk about everything and everyone, and I am sure no Italian reading or participating in this topic has taken any offence in anything that has been written and debated in such a nice and gentle way.
If I may add this, I much prefer this type of discussions than reading the usual questions about hotels or itineraries per se. I guess this is what I have always liked in the Slow Talk forum and that is such a rare thing to find in a forum.
This is what keeps me coming here, or staying away when nothing like this is going on.
My very personal opinion of course (which as you may have noticed, I have already expressed on other occasions).
So thank you DDtraveler for providing the opportunity for this discussion.
DDtraveler, please don't stop on my account. Lots of STers have found this thread interesting and appropriate. (The mods would step in if they thought otherwise.)
Gloria ---- I must be mostly Italian, as I sure am opinionated.
Originally posted by DDtraveler: Glad no offense taken. Will confine my future posts to travel-related issues.
Hello DDtraveler - There was nothing at all wrong with your first post and I am glad topics like this come up on this board. There are many interesting topics that do not involve eating, drinking and how to get somewhere in Italy. I hope that you will not feel bad about posting and that you will continue to be involved. I think that you were motivated solely by your enthusiasm for Italy and its people and the many diverse responses reflect that same enthusiasm in others.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gloria - Casina di Rosa: Nothing of what you would consider "politically correct". We talk about everything and everyone, and I am sure no Italian reading or participating in this topic has taken any offence in anything that has been written and debated in such a nice and gentle way.
If I may add this, I much prefer this type of discussions than reading the usual questions about hotels or itineraries per se. I guess this is what I have always liked in the Slow Talk forum and that is such a rare thing to find in a forum. QUOTE]
Ciao a tutti! Finally I have the time to read all your very interesting comments and I undersign every single word written by Gloria above.
Thinking that this discussion can be felt by an Italian as something racist, I think it's impossible...
Concerning the topic, I would like to post also my Italian opinion about our so-called "happiness". I don't think we are happy, in the sense to be optimistic about our future, especially new generations, i.e. Baby Boomers'children, like me and (I suppose) Gloria are, for a series of reasons that it's to boring to list, now. So that I am sure that our parents are happier than us (except for the fact that they are worried for us...) In my opinion the level of happiness also depends on the age.
In general I think that people from abroad confuse the happiness with the pleasure of life, that I think foreigners "envy". As another ST before said "we can get pleasure from a Spaghetti allo Scoglio". But why and how? First because since the age of 2, for us Italian the food is not only something to introduce in our body just to go on living, second because we have (and this is maybe one of the best aspect of Italy) a HUGE amount of fantastic food, very easy to find at a reasonable price. Food that, when it's (with wine) introduced in our body, it is able to realease an incredible number of endorphins!!
I am always happy after a piatto of Spaghetti allo Scoglio, so be careful when you ask an Italian the question about happiness. Before or after lunch! Alessandra
(see my fountain outfit: my vertiginous décolleté)
