When I visited Italy 3 years ago, I had an opportunity to meeta friend I had been e-corresponding with for a year. I didn't know what local etiquette required but I elected not to bring a gift - I had no idea of her economic situation, didn't want to embarrass her, etc. - so guess who was embarrassed!
She and her husband drove from Modena to Florence, to meet us, bringing a fantastic gift of Modenese regional foods, toured the city with us for the entire day, and then bought us un bel pranzo at one of the best places I've eaten in my life, insisting that we were their guests, and could not pay for the meal.
Well, we're going again...This time, we'll travel to Modena, and we're bringing her a package of American regional foods (a bottle of Long Island wine, Vermont maple syrup and pancake mix, southwestern hot sauce and chile mix, Sam Adams Beer, maybe some other stuff if I can lug it...) When we wrote to plan, she said they would take us to a good EmiliaRomana restaurant. I reminded her that she had entertained us well on our last trip, and that I'd like to treat. I got back a no-nonsense assertion that we are her guests, and we are not to discuss it further.
The usual rule is that both say that they'd like to treat and one "wins" and the other "looses" I mean, there's no rule, it depends on how assertive you succeed to sound and on who's the first saying something like "we are not to discuss it further!"... Enjoy the great Modenese food and your friend's company!
I have a wonderful friend like that and at one restaurant (after having had her pay about 5X's in a row at other GTG's) I managed to grab the check from the waiter and took off with it at a dead run for the cash register. Of course she gave chase and we ran around the tables a few times with the other diners cheering us on. I absolutely insisted on paying and she finally gave in, but we were both kinda embarrassed at the time. However we still tell that story now everytime we see each other, and we have agreed to take turns. The rule is whoever pays the bill the other leaves the tip. I would say be gracious and accept her hospitality, but when she comes to the States pull out all the stops.
The other possibility is (if your Italian is good enough or if you have great miming skills) telling the waiter (without your friends noticing it) that you're the one who will pay the bill, so that the bill will be taken to YOU. This usually works if your friends haven't done that BEFORE! But I agree with suncoast, accept her hospitality!
You could try a trick that worked beautifully for us recently: we were staying in England with a cousin, who had made reservations for us at a very fancy hotel-restaurant for an elegant Sunday lunch.(on a visit to the US several months earlier she insisted on paying for dinner when we were out together). To avoid an end of meal "discussion" of who would pay, my husband excused himself from the table early in the meal and went out to the receptionist, gave her his credit card, and asked her to charge our meal to that card. At the end of the meal the maitre d' presented DH with the credit card slip already filled out, and no need for any argument.
Posts: 1891 | Location: Berkeley, CA | Registered: 22 March 2005
the way i handle this kind of situation is to allow my italian friends and family to do what they want.... i then provide gifts (nothing overwhelming) and small gratitudes.
as you probably know, the italians are a very proud bunch and they get such joy in "doing" for their guests.
i have found that my small tokens - the unexpected bouquets of roses, the parfumes from the santa marie novella pharmacy, the bottle of good wine - are accepted very graciously.
so, go - enjoy and be thankful.
Posts: 958 | Location: smack dab midwest | Registered: 06 September 2004
All my experiences in Italy over the past 20 years related to dining out with Italians, have been the same: they insist I am their guest. This didn't apply when I lived in Italy and went out with Italian friends, but if I was visiting Italy and if I was specifically visiting Italian friends or acquaintances, they insisted on paying and it seemed clear to me that it is a "norm" in their culture, to see the visitor as a guest for whom they will pay. In turn, it would be normal to them for YOU to host them (which means paying for meals, etc) if they visited you in the US. I am surprised no one's response to you has stated that this is a specific norm in Italian culture. My experience with the culture has consistently always made this clear to me.
RedRedWine: I can confirm your experience. After being treated a couple of times by my Italian relatives in Bologna, I invited them to an upscale restaurant only (to my chagrin) to have them sneak off and pay the bill while we were waiting for dessert. Also, I had had a "special agreement" with the owner as to the price ("friend of a friend" kind of thing), so I just hope the bill wasn't too high. They were very firm: "when you are in Italy, you are our guest." so I responded that they would be my guest in America. They visited this winter, so I was able to treat them to a couple of nice meals (they offered to pay, but I reminded them of our "deal"). ---Marlene
Posts: 568 | Location: Boston, MA | Registered: 11 May 2004
It will be very difficult to pick up a check unless you enlist the help of one of the family members in advance. Best to just accept graciously and start planning, aloud, how you will reciprocate one day. The gifts you propose to bring are, of course, appropriate, but they will probably gather dust in your friends' kitchen, with the possible exception of the maple syrup, which is delish over ricotta. Believe me, I have been/done on both sides of this one... Spare yourself the carrying of Long Island wine (or else bring something important like a pinot noir from California or Oregon) and think instead of what America does better than Emilia-Romagna. High-end kitchen gadgets? An iPod? The iPod is pretty much the right order of magnitude. Good luck. And congratulations on having such nice friends.
Originally posted by Maureen B. Fant: Best to just accept graciously and start planning, aloud, how you will reciprocate one day. The gifts you propose to bring are, of course, appropriate, but they will probably gather dust in your friends' kitchen, with the possible exception of the maple syrup, which is delish over ricotta.
I agree with Maureen. As a summation of what I said in my earlier post, accept that they see you guys as their guests (ospiti) and encourage them to visit you in the US. And it will help how you feel to bring them gifts and as Maureen said, the gifts are appropriate, and in agreement with her I would say that I can't imagine that pancake mix will get used.
Italians are so attached to their way of cooking, and their particular ingredients and they tend to feel that the American way of cooking/eating and American ingredients are not on equal footing with theirs.... While they may find a good California wine intersting to try, I just can't imagine them deciding to actually try making pancakes in their home, with no Americans present. The place to introduce them to pancakes would be when they are visiting you in the US.
Regarding the beer, Italians tend to only drink it when they eat Pizza. If your friends have a pizza oven at their house, the beer may get consumed. I can however say that it depends how 'worldly' your Italian friends are. I have some Italian friends (Florentines) who absolutely love to travel around Europe and bring back gourmet foods from Germany, France, etc. and then have me (or whoever) come over to partake.... In this way, they are consuming foreign beers for fun. So if your Italian friends have this kind of penchant, then I'd say bring the beer. The beer, wine and maple syrup are probably what'll most likely be used out of your list.
Also are these friends into cocktails? Cocktails didn't used to be popular in Italy but they are more so now. My same Italian friends mentioned above went nuts for the gin & tonics I made them. There are a lot of cool cocktail mixes in places like Williams Sonoma, etc. which may be of interest to your friends.
I would let them pay for the meal but bring gifts for them and after the meal take them out for drinks or coffee somewhere else. Maybe say that you will accept the lunch from them but that you would like to offer a dessert somewhere else.
Also remember that when they visit you they will probably insist on paying for everything.
Non vorrei fare brutta figura to correct your title. if it was farmi you would be emarassing yourself to yourself.
I'd personally greatly appreciate the pancake mix and everything that s tenen describes as possible gifts, I think that it greatly depends on the kind of person your friend is! I think I don't really agree on RedRedWine theory about being a norm that Italians pay when you're in Italy... I think that it just makes a great excuse when you get to the "we are not to discuss it further" point of the "I pay, no, I pay" discussion!
Hmmmm- our experience in similar situations leads me to agree with Redredwine's assessment. After many visits and a closer friendship(and a few "contests"), we have been able to discuss some of this more comfortably and now make jokes about "American" style or "Italian" style (for example, helping with dishes, setting the table etc, something that I always do when a guest here, is DEFINITELY American style!)But the bottom line is, if we are in Italy, we are their guests and they take great pride in being good hosts. When the daughters came here for a visit we were finally able to reciprocate.
Food gifts- I have found adapting some of our goodies to Italian culture makes them a lot more fun. For example, using the pancake mix for thin crepe-like pancakes, filled with a bit of ricotta and drizzled with maple syrup- then served for dessert- was a big hit. They would never eat pancakes for breakfast! We also made "cookie kits" - all the ingredients for peanut butter or choc chip cookies that they cannot find there (like the brown sugar etc.) with a converted recipe was great fun. The teenage daughters especially enjoyed making them and then showing off their American treats to their friends.
Have a great visit!
Posts: 605 | Location: Rehoboth, MA USA | Registered: 30 August 2003
I've gotten away with paying for dinner with Italian friends, once, by using my husband's pride as an excuse. I took the wife aside beforehand and explained that it was important for him to pay this time since they had been so generous in the past. They very graciously humored us by allowing him to pay. However, this trip, we are invited to lunch at their home. I'll be bringng her a scarf from the Andrew Wyeth show at the Philadelphia Art Museum. It may gather dust on a shelf somewhere, but then again she might like it. Jeanne.....heading to the airport this afternoon
Posts: 420 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: 07 March 2003
helping with dishes, setting the table etc, something that I always do when a guest here, is DEFINITELY American style!
I'm confused! I always do that and my Italian and Spanish friends also do... Actually that's the way I like my relationship with friends to be! It's possible that I'm not a good example of the typical Italian...I would like to read some Italian point of view... anybody there?
Wow! How nice that all of you commented. I will go with the concensus - let'm pay, but I am bringing the food gifts. My friends love cooking, and their vacations consist of traveling around Europe looking for new beers, which they prefer over wines. As a matter of fact, I think I'll leave the wine home, and bring them as much beer as I can carry. I've never seen a Sam Adams overseas, nor any American microbrewery beers. My Italian teacher promised me that pancakes will be a thrill (they can make it any way they want!). I appreciate especially the correction of my figure of speech. I guess it would would be okay to say to my husband - not that it would be necessary - Non fai mi fare una brutta figura. Then I'd be telling HIM not to embarrass ME, right? All of your experiences are very interesting!
Ho fatto una brutta figura gia! Thanks - I'll get it right someday. Quando parlavo italiano in Italia, la gente mi hanno (ha?) risposto quasi sempre in inglese!
And, non hai fatto per niente una brutta figura! I really can't imagine how many mistakes I make when I write in English!!!! The good thing is that you try: the more you try the faster your Italian will be perfect!
I am Italian, and I tell you that the thing that friends help you setting the table is NOT definitely American. All my friends Italian and not, help out when invited, and I do it too when I am invited. The point is maybe in how formal is your dinner. If there is a maid NOT help, if there isn't, do help. If your guest is "entertaining" with 6 glasses per place and 25 beetween forks, knives and all, Do not help, if else, do. If your guest is your boss and you are invited for work, DO NOT, if out of sympathy and friendship, DO.
Again, it is not a rule to invite out your visiting friends. You do it because you like them and you want to make them feel good. But it cannot go on forever, right?, better slip off with the excuse of a quick visit to the restroom and talk with the waiter. at least one time out of 5
What a relief Alessandra! In statistical terms I think that we still don't know if helping your friends setting the table is really normal in Italy but at least I know that I'm not the ONLY strange Italian around!
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