Ben tornata Sally, e brava, you went to Norcia, one of my very favorite places in the whole world!
Entomology.
Frisian speakers quite rare! and usually very proud of it; something of a renascence recently.
But mostly: what is your source for Castelluccio (nasty nasty place, gorgeous gorgeous scenery) being the oldest continuously inhabited place in Umbria? Yes, you can hear me sniff all the way from Chicago, for various reasons: continuous habitation is extremely difficult to prove or disprove, and half a dozen other places come instantly to mind, my candidate being Todi -- and yet, it may be absolutely true; so as an Umbrophile and a truthophile I really am interested in your answer, yes.
You mentioned that you didn't see any sheep in the Piano Grande. Too cold, I think; I read somewhere that they are taken down to Norcia for the winter. Whether it's too cold for the sheep or the shepherds, couldn't say. Castelluccio is the kind of place you could threaten your children with when they misbehave, the outpost's outpost.
Posts: 2054 | Location: Suburban Philadelphia | Registered: 08 July 2002
SALLY!!! Welcome home. Can't wait to read all of your posts. Got your e-mail about Alex. I'll call her this morning. Also, need to start talking to you about arrangements for our trip in May.
Deborah Horn
In a previous life I was an Umbrian sunflower farmer. I'd like to do a past life regression and stay there. ----------------------------------- www.petsburg.com
Posts: 4996 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: 04 September 2001
We can form the asma club!!! I have also "been there done that!" Amazing that it costs so little! I had to take my husband once to the emergency room in SF.. $1,000!
Sally That is one of the finest trip reports ever!!! Glad you had such good care for your respiratory ailment. Everyone I know who's been to Italy in the past six months has contracted one. I've taken to calling it MARS (moderate acute repiratory syndrome)but go know.
Imagine the Piano Grande alone and worrying if that creep who was following you around Norcia was still on your trail. Ho avuto paura. But I will go back there one fine spring day for the flowers.
Sally, to save you a few steps, I drug out my own copy of the Rough Guide (for Tuscany and Umbria, 1994 ed.) and combed carefully thru their Castelluccio, not there. I've started poking around online see if I can get some clues. It's a pity it wasn't in the Rough Guide, because although I don't like their tone very much, their info when I've gone to it has been good.
The problem with assertions like this, is once they get into print, they propagate and later appear to be true although they may have no foundation at all (such as the many misinterpretations of Pliny one sees, but also for example the various figures one sees about Americans with no health insurance).
If Castelluccio's continuous habitation is serious felt to be true, though, it would surely have something to do with the cattle migration tracks, and presumably continuous strata from prehistoric times thru the present in a careful excavation there; one that I'm not aware of (yet). If not, it's exaggeration or boosterism, of course.
Thanks! 1994 edition: "At 1452m Castelluccio is one of Italy's highest settlements,..."
And that solves the mystery. "Continually", i.e., inhabited year-round, as opposed to "oldest continuously," which is something quite different. "Continually" does seem likely: i.e., as opposed to ski resorts.
Oops, I am confused. My Webster's distinguishes between continual and continuous in one meaning, with continual defined as "recurring in steady rapid succession," but in another, the two are synonymous, i.e., "marked by uninterrupted extension in space, time, or sequence." I always thought that continual meant repeated ad infinitum, like nagging , while continuous means never stopping (as in a continuo in music or the humming of a beehive, anyway, something that never stops). Help, please, mavens of language!
Posts: 2054 | Location: Suburban Philadelphia | Registered: 08 July 2002
Carol, your usage is right on; even in the Rough Guide's sentence, "continuous" would have been the better choice, although "continual" (if they do indeed mean "every day of the year", as opposed to "back thru endless ages of time") is defensible, mostly because, as you say, "continual" means something that is perceived as -- remorselessly -- present. I think they were, precisely, trying to avoid the phrase "continuously inhabited", which has come to mean "continuously inhabited (for a long time, from a historical perspective)". I'm no stylist, so I believe I understand them; though I'm no stylist, I'd probably not have written either one, but weaseled out of it by writing "inhabited year-round" or "uninterruptedly inhabited from the most ancient times".
Writing is fiendish -- at least to me it is! -- and here's the result when we don't write well; now I'm back to wondering if there was an excavation I missed: thanks Carol....
Although the dictionary allows it, I personally disagree with the practice of using "continuous" as a synonym for "continual."
"Continuous" implies steady repetition without interruption. In the mathematical context it means, "Of or relating to a line or curve that extends without a break or irregularity."
So, according to my understanding, for a town to qualify as one that had been inhabited continuously from Year X to Year Y, it would have to have been a permanent place of residence for a succession of people without interruption.
A place that had been inhabited continually, on the other hand, could have been vacated at intervals. Continual habitation implies a rhythm in which habitation is the norm, but the term does allow for interruptions.
quote:Head-Smashed-In has been used continuously by aboriginal peoples of the plains for more than 5,500 years.
Let us ignore for the moment the incorrect use of tense. Since aboriginal people no longer use the site, one cannot say it "has been used." It would be more correct to say it "was used."
More importantly, however, it cannot be claimed that the site was used continuously. It was a seasonal site at which aboriginal people camped for several weeks in the fall when they slaughtered buffalo and made pemican that would take them through the winter. They did not even use that particular site every fall. They followed the buffalo migrations, and there were several sites on the Plains that served this purpose. This site was used frequently enough, however, that it would be fair to say that, over 5500 years, it continually was used for the autumn buffalo slaughter.
There is an ongoing debate in the circles that use the term Continuous / Continual Improvement. I belong to the school that believes it should be called continual improvement. Even if one is achieving a steady rate of progress, I don't believe one could claim to be improving without interruption. Rather one improves a bit, reaches a plateau for a little while, improves again, and so on. Interestingly enough, in my experience, the people who are fastidious about using continual improvement often are those for whom English is a foreign language. Their English, in many respects, is purer than that of native English speakers.
To put this into the context of the discussion of Castelluccio, which is where this tangent started, I agree with Rough Guide’s use of “continual.”
Sorry for the diversion, Sally. I enjoyed reading your trip report. I’m glad you had a great time for the most part, and am relieved to hear you surmounted your health hurdle.
Sally, what a great story! I will print it for Josette, because she has an aversion for reading from a screen, and I can't wait for her reaction to Piano Grande, which for her means the one in the living room, on which only she plays, and her students before concerts...
Sally, forget the travel business; you should write. Or do both.
And for a Slow Travel(l)er, you are amazingly mobile! What a whirlwind!
[This message was edited by Doru on 25 January 2004 at 05:51 PM.]
Posts: 5897 | Location: Toronto | Registered: 26 May 2002
quote:Originally posted by Judy in Calgary: Although the dictionary allows it, I personally disagree with the practice of using "continuous" as a synonym for "continual."
Judy, you are so right! About 5 month after my immigration, and on my first day on the job with my current employer, I wrote a letter that my manager had to countersign, and in which I used the word "continually" about some problem that occurred many times but not all the time. He wanted to have it changed to "continuously". We argued, and argued, and I had two children at home, and Josette didn't start giving lessons yet, so we settled on "intermittently".
Posts: 5897 | Location: Toronto | Registered: 26 May 2002
All of which still doesn't answer the question as to whether those Castellucini were always there in the Piano Grande or "intermittently" lived elsewhere, like down to Norcia during the winters, still in the "zona Norcia". If they closed up shop but then moved back each Spring and never stopped the routine, probably "continuously" works as well. If they took a sabbatical now and then, and Castellucio was ever an ex-village, then we'd have to settle for "continually," no?
Posts: 2054 | Location: Suburban Philadelphia | Registered: 08 July 2002
In a previous life I was an Umbrian sunflower farmer. I'd like to do a past life regression and stay there. ----------------------------------- www.petsburg.com
Posts: 4996 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: 04 September 2001
I've thoroughly enjoyed the tangent that Castellucio took us off on...old school teacher here.
>>and for a Slow Travel(l)er, you are amazingly mobile! What a whirlwind!>>
It was a luxury for me to get to spend two whole weeks in Italy, but one that had to be divided up as there were so many drivers/guides/suppliers/innkeepers I wanted to meet. All were people I'd come to know through using them to take good care of my clients, so it was a special joy to get to meet them and experience their good care personally.
SALLY WATKINS, Certified Travel Counselor sally@century-tvl.com www.sallywatkins.com Italy Specialist Certified Swiss Specialist Certified Aussie Specialist My business depends on referrals - please tell someone today!
Sally emailed me with some missing content from one of the pages in her trip report. If you've already read it, you may want to go back to this page and scan for what you missed.
Posts: 7516 | Location: Sacramento, CA | Registered: 18 June 2001
Sally - I loved reading your report. I've only been to Italy twice, but could relate to your visiting the pharmacia and getting good service and paying very little for your medication. Last year when I had need of several medications, I couldn't believe the low cost and, as in your case, being able to buy some medications without a prescription.
Having just finished reading "Vanilla Beans and Brode", it was fun hearing you describe your visit with Luigi and eating at Trattori Grappa Blu. Montalcino is at the top of my list for a return visit to Italy.
Thank you for sharing.
Posts: 58 | Location: Acushnet, MA, USA | Registered: 21 June 2002
Really enjoyed your report Sally. Even though we've been to Villa Gaidello 4 times, I still love to hear people describe their amazing menu. Happy Birthday - I spent mine in Italy last October.
Posts: 495 | Location: San Diego, Ca. | Registered: 27 November 2002
Topic Closed
, while continuous means never stopping (as in a continuo in music or the humming of a beehive, anyway, something that never stops). Help, please, mavens of language! 
Nancy