A question for an Italian resident or a non-resident property owner:

Background

My wife's family (8 siblings) share ownership/access of a home in Italy. The owners of record are two of the brothers, but maintenance and annual upkeep (repairs and payment of water and electricity) are done by my wife.

The house belonged to their greatgrandparents and has been passed down in the family.

Between my wife's parents and her and her siblings, they have maintained the house for over 30 years.

In looking over the financial records, I see no payments ever made for any type of property taxes in this entire time.

I understand there is a municipal property tax that should be paid? How is this assessed and how is notification made of amounts due? Is non-enforcement common or are we just dancing through the raindrops in never having an assessor show up at our door with a seizure order?

Thanks in advance for information

ICI is a recent tax (1993) and you can read info about it here http://www.expatsinitaly.com/how/ici.htm They do not send out amount due notices. It is up to each property owner to know what they have to pay and pay it before the due date (June 30 and Dec. 20 if paying 50/50, June 30 if paying all) Your best bet is to go to your local comune and ask where the office for ICI is and find out if you owe or not. You should also follow the tutorial on the page I gave above. Make sure that you read it thouroughly, each owner must file in their own name for their percentage. Many people do not have to pay anything for older houses by the way so you may owe nothing.

You say that only 2 of the brothers are on the title but if all own it then all should be on the title deed. It could be that they are the only two that have claimed residency on the house but if it was passed down it should list all names it was passed to.

Some municipalities also have a tax for "garbage and street sweeping". I have a local commercialista, he keeps track of all of this and lets me know when to write a check. His fee is very small, and this way I don't have to worry about compliance.

Usually the municipality sends the garbage collection tax form (but often the time window to pay it is narrow); on the contrary, you should compute and pay ICI on your own.

Our commune also sends out the ICI form with a calculation table twice a year. Probably every commune is different.

Diana

While we are on the subject - just exactly how is this tax calculated. In California the property tax is calculated on last sale value, in Arizona on some "property value" that is beyond even God's ability to understand.

I know that when you buy a house in Italy there's the sale price and then there's the real price (a concept that bothers me a great deal BTW). If I buy property in Rome and the contract price is 100,000 euro but I really paid 200,000 euro (in a side deal) which the commune doesn't know about, what are my taxes going to be based on? The 100,000 sale price? The 200,000 real price because the commune knows that is what property is going for? or some blended value? Or even something in excess of the 200,000 because I got a great deal?

Enquiring minds want to know.

ICI is based on "valore catastale" (registration value), that is a simbolic amount almost impossible to divine.

The property sales tax is based upon the official amount paid at the time of sale. There is a percentage for the residence, and another percentage for agricultural land. THe precentage is also different if the house is your primary residence-- the tax is lower.

The ICI is based upon a "pro mille" of the cataster value (a value set on the registration paperwork when you buy or renovate your house.) It is not a large amount of money, in comparison to property taxes in most US states. Last year I had to pay none because there is a deductible and my ICI was covered by the deductible. I went to the commune to comfirm this and they told me I had done it correctly.

Diana

You would pay the tax on the 100,000 to answer your question.

THere are certain caveats to be very aware of when paying any amount of your sale price under the table.

Diana

quote:

Originally posted by Diana Strinati Baur:
You would pay the tax on the 100,000 to answer your question.

THere are certain caveats to be very aware of when paying any amount of your sale price under the table.

Diana

EXACTLY!! Which is why the whole concept bothers me a great deal.

quote:

Originally posted by itarchivarius:
ICI is based on "valore catastale" (registration value), that is a simbolic amount almost impossible to divine.

ROFLMAO. It is so true of all governments. Their ways are surpassing in strangeness!!

quote:

Originally posted by itarchivarius:
ICI is based on "valore catastale" (registration value), that is a simbolic amount almost impossible to divine.

Aren't the Valore Catastale the young men who used to sing soprano or mezzo-soprano in church choirs during 17th and 18th century? That might explain how the government calculates things.

You mean the "castrati" such as the famous Farinelli!!

quote:

You say that only 2 of the brothers are on the title but if all own it then all should be on the title deed. It could be that they are the only two that have claimed residency on the house but if it was passed down it should list all names it was passed to.

Thank you for the information. The house is supposedly 300 years old, so if there is an exemption for "older properties", we would qualify?

We are in the process at looking at the legal ownership of the house and have had trouble finding a property attorney (if you can recommend an attorney in Lucca, we'd be grateful). To date, we have not even had a response to written queries.

Ownership went from the greatgrandparents to a son who remained in Italy and became a priest. He willed it to his housekeeper who then signed it over to my wife's father. The father then designated that the house was there for the use of all 8 children, but only named two in the will as owners.

It is very unclear if any of the American transactions were ever recorded in Italy.

Finding ownership is not so difficult, you have to check the "Conservatoria del Registro" or "agenzia del territorio" in the provincial city. The legal owner is considered to be the last person named in their register.

For Lucca, I believe this is the address:
http://www.agenziaterritorio.it/agenzia/i_nostri_uffici...cca/infogenerali.htm

(look for conservatoria and please remember I am not an attorney)

You need a contracts attorney. I have an excellent one in Genoa who could help you. Crossing states does not matter: our origional contracts attorney was in Lombardia (Milano).

We had our title searched to approximatley 1800 before entering into a compromesso. It might have been over cautious, but that was what we chose to do.

There is alot of information about buying a house in Italy in cristina's website.

Another thank you to all for the info on both taxes and attorneys.

One of the brothers of record for ownership will be in Italy at the same time we are this year, so a good time to sit down and go over all the issues with local officials. You've given us a good starting point.

On a personal note, my wife and I had pretty much the same reaction when we looked at the property tax forms....and that was laughter.

Between us, we have 57 years with the Internal Revenue Service (I retired as a deputy to the national director for info services, but then went through an intensive socialization program to make me fit for association with fellow humans....however, my wife is still part of the criminal investigation function and is a few years away from being allowed back into polite society). For both of us, however, it is good to know that other countries can also create so much consternation over tax forms.