Originally posted by Kim: Actually, one of the popes was moved from underneath (i.e., buried in the dirt), recently when he was cannonized (maybe John the ??), anyway, John Paul is taking his old spot.
propbably the previous pope, john paul I - who lived for a short time (4 weeks?) after his election to pope. i don't think jpI has been cannonized yet; beatified, yes. (first step on the catholic way to sainthood.)
Sorry Colleen, you're jumping the gun. John XXIII has been beatified, but no other Pope within the living memory of most of us. The excellent megasite GigaCatholic.Com, at any rate, agrees with my memory; its pope page does not list Luciani as a Blessed, and its Blesseds pages don't either.
These things take a while, in part to reduce popular pressure on canonization, which is serious business after all. There's still some pressure, though: the cause for example of Pope Pius XII was introduced at the same time as that of Pope Roncalli, but hasn't moved as fast.
It's a bit mind boggling to think of so many heads of State in such a small area. There is concern about security as the Vatican rules supposedly dictate that only the Police of Vatican City are allowed to carry guns. I would imagine that under these extreme circumstances, the rules would have to be bent to suit the need. We'll see... Here's hoping they end up with sufficient security after all. Too tempting for the crazies out there.
Graphic quite handsome alrite, but the political bias in "exile in Avignon", the curious and ugly plural instead of the proper "sarcophagi", and of course, the bald assertion that there is bare soil down there, are all minuses.
The Popes are entombed in the Grotte Vaticane, which is where the now vacant tomb of Papa Roncalli is. Under the Grotte there is not bare soil, at least not immediately: there's something like ten feet or more of structures of varying periods back to Roman times, as all of us who've taken the Scavi tour know. I'm very very doubtful about bare soil there.
Steph...Congrats on the funeral job you have for tomorrow. I think you should rethink the bike thing. I read in an earlier post of someone who left home on a bike today, and returned home to drop off the bike and continued to get through the traffic on foot. Just an idea. It sounds too important to take a chance of missing out because of the crowds.
Posts: 36 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 04 October 2004
I've seen a diagram of the burial sites of recent popes on some media site, but haven't found it now. On this page from the New York Times, you can run the "Interactive: After John Paul II" and see diagrams of where the lines of mourners went.
Again, being buried in earth and underground are two different things, at least at the Vatican. His wooden casket will be in soil, but above ground in a simple stone enclosure.
Just back from my reporting for the BBC. Sandy, thanks for your concerns, but I had no problems. Aside from the police escorts whizzing by with heads of state. They have no regard for cyclists.
BBC Cumbria asked me to report again at 12:45pm and 6:05pm Rome time. If you want to listen, instructions are in this thread.
I went to a number of the big screen locations: Piazza del Popolo, Piazza Navona (where there was no big screen!), Colosseum, Circo Massimo, S. Maria Maggiore. No really huge crowds. Big at Circo Massimo and Piazza del Popolo, but not huge. I've seen bigger at free concerts. I think everyone was really trying to get to the Vatican. Still a lot of people out walking around.
I talked to many many people from Poland. The dominant colors everywhere are the white and red of the Polish flag.
Well, that was amazing; the logistics let alone all the rest! I've just watched what TV feed we got here in Chicago — nice to see the particularly intimate participation of the Orthodox churches, including the non-Uniate.
An ancient Roman would, I think, have interpreted as an omen the strong winds from the South: maybe the next Pope will be an African after all. As for the Prophecy of Malachi (which I was amazed to find not discredited, but rather the reverse, in the Catholic Encyclopedia) it titled Pope Wojtyla "De labore solis" which fits very well, and the next (the next-to-last in his list) as "Gloria Olivae". Mind you some of the others were way off the mark, like "Rosa Umbriae" applied to Clement XIII, a Venetian.
Sorry to have drug in another red herring (although then again, what's travel if we don't look at what we're seeing?). Anyhoo, to dispatch the St. Malachy item, I was, for exactly that reason, quite surprised to find the longish passage in the Catholic Encyclopedia article; unambiguously in favor of their appositeness, it should be ascribed to the individual article author: but although the Encyclopedia is hardly a binding pronouncement of the Church, it was meant as fairly authoritative; and of course it's under imprimatur and nihil obstat (although all that means is that there's nothing contrary to Catholic doctrine in it).
Bill, while I respect your insights/opinions (though I have no idea about St. Malachy or any of that), please note Chris's comment above (this is not the correct forum for religious discussions) and my previous request to stay on topic.
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