"We thought Camogli was a gem, well worth the separate stay there - it seems to have kept an authenticity about it that we thought was lost in places like St. Margherita or Bonassola, which we passed through."
The above post from a discussion on Liguria got me thinking: What is it that makes for an authentic Italian town or city? Is it the state of preservation, or the proportion of tourists to locals? I have my own opinions and I'm sure many of you do too. I did not want to hijack the thread, so I have started this new one.
IMO, every place in Italy has some authenticity. Even places like San Gimignano, Positano and Vernazza, where yes there is a whole lot of tourism going on, possess some "real" life to them.
For me, it is easiest to explain the Cinque Terre. This board has been pretty harsh on it at times ("Overrun tourist trap"), yet if you are there in the evening (or not a weekend in July & August!), you see a different side to it. You see the fisherman preparing their boats for the early morning "run". You see the little old ladies finally exiting the house to do an errand or find another little old lady "da fare quattro chiacchiere" as the sun will no longer beating down on them. You see the local kids playing in the piazza or by the sea, because finally the beach is "all theirs".
Authenticity exists all over Italy, but in some places, it just goes into a bit of hibernation during part of the day (at least in the summer!).
1. Conforming to fact and therefore worthy of trust, reliance, or belief: an authentic account by an eyewitness. 2. Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied: an authentic medieval sword. 3. Law Executed with due process: an authentic deed.
Pienza comes to mind as perhaps not being an authentic town.
But, since time has its way of changing everything everywhere, maybe referring to a town as being “authentic” is a malapropism? Is “fake” the opposite of “authentic”?
We do know of “fake” towns like Sturbridge, Massachusetts or the infamous Potamkin villages in the Crimea. Would these towns be “authentic” as an authentic American Colonial Town or an authentic Crimean, Russian, Greek, Venetian, Ukrainian, or Persians etc. village? I think that the word “authentic” is often overused (and misused). Actually, the word “authentic” turns me off, and I think its usage should be very seldom used. I guess I am getting to be more of a curmudgeon as I grow older. Apologies to those I might offend.
"Authentic" to me means "about 50-75 years behind the times". Having grown up in West Virginia, it is very easy to find "authentic" small town settings in my home state.
Unfortunately for the people who live there, it means that economic conditions have led to stagnation of those towns as other locales were (for better or worse) able to modernize their infrastructure, to add new buildings, to bring in chain stores, etc.
I was just in a town called Martinsburg (eastern panhandle of WV) this past week to buy a "Jo Jo" (vanilla ice cream, chocolate fudge, marshmallow, and peanut butter served in a milkshake cup). There were two of us at the soda counter enjoying this high sugar treat while, across town, there were probably 50 or more people at the various McDonald's buying McFlurrys that were probably cheaper and served faster.
The McDonalds are just as authentic as Patterson's Drug Store (home of the Jo Jo), but the image we hold in our heads when we travel (IMO) is of days gone by. In Italy, I stop and take pictures of the folks who still beat down the olives from the trees by hand at harvest time, but drive by the ones who use automated means.
I drink in the images of the old women dressed in black, the occasional donkey on a country road, and the men playing dominoes outside the bar, but hardly glance at the white-haired women dressed in modern clothing, the man driving the mini-truck, or the man at the bar talking on his cell phone.....but I would guess that the latter are every bit as Italian as the former....just not as photogenic.
Posts: 775 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: 22 May 2006
For me authenticity is about the place getting on with it's life, but attempting to treat tourists as it would any other visitor. Italian hospitality can be exceptional, though IMO it tends to the extremes of generosity when some way off the normal tourist trail.
From another perspective, I'd suggest that "slow" tourists are as much interested in the local customs and culture, understanding and adapting to them, than in a succession of famous sights. All too often around the very famous sights, one encounters restaurants & shops that are as far from authentic as is possible.
regards
Ian
Drink coffee, do stupid things faster
Posts: 330 | Location: UK | Registered: 20 September 2008
Perhaps authentic isn't the right word as it seems that the real thrust of the question is the search for the past of a place. It is difficult to categorize parts of countries into real and less real--authentic and non-authentic. In China we saw farmers herding water buffalo and geese as has been done for centuries but they were no more authentic than the garish neon lights of Beijing surrounding the hutongs.
In Italy the new authenticity of Florence's fashion stores and tourists outside the Duomo exist side-by-side with the palazzos of the Renaissance. Authenticity is an evolving concept.
I think that what we so enjoy when we travel are excursions into the past, trying to find what was authentic at another period--a hard discovery to reach.
I think you can't separate "authentic" from "tradition".... One example: Here on northern Lake Como you can find the "missoltini" (a tipical lake fish called "agone" dried in the sun and then pressed with "alloro" to preserve it in time - very tasty, is served with fried polenta and is the traditional dish in the area)... well the authentic "missoltino" can only be found here and can only be made this way
I gave this a whole day's thought... that's a lot! I think that what is authentic is what the Italians of the area choose to have when there are no tourists around. That could be anything to any taste, from ultra-modern to ancient, IMO. The reason places like Pienza or Cinque Terre seem less authentic is that they are rarely (never?) without tourists. The horrid thing is as soon as you walk in there's a tourist and out may come a smile, a frown, or anything that wouldn't be there if you weren't. I think it is amazing that there's anything authentic left after thousands of years of tourists.
I gave this a lot of thought also. I think this is a very subjective question. I've read so many discussions here on Slow Travel of what people expect from their trips to Italy. If they go in search of a certain thing, or look, or taste, and they succeed in finding it, they feel they have found their own version of 'authenticity'. And if they don't, sometimes they return disappointed that it isn't 'authentic' any longer.
Authentic in my online dictionary, is defined: an authentic document: GENUINE, real, bona fide, true, an authentic depiction of the situation: RELIABLE, dependable, trustworthy, authoritative, honest, faithful; accurate, factual, true, truthful;
By this definition it seems to me that almost everything is authentic, so long as it is true to itself, its time, and its place. Referring back to the original post of this thread, Camogli is Camogli, Santa Margherita is Santa Margherita, and Bonassola is Bonassola, all authentic to themselves. But whether they are authentic to each traveler... that becomes a very subjective matter.
I was the one who wrote the original post you quoted - about the authenticity of Camogli. I admit I wasn't really thinking about the exact significance of the word, and in hindsight, I should have just described why I liked the place more than others. "Authenticity" in Italy is not something I can be the judge of, after only one short visit.
The thing that was interesting when we described our liking of Camogli to Italians, was that they agreed that Camogli had kept something about it that other places hadn't. One of them (a resident of Camogli) told us how a neighboring town (Rapallo possibly? I can't recall) had tried too hard to become attractive to tourists, or to keep up with the times, and as a result, the place had lost its charm, and that the name of the town had become a verb (in Italian) to describe the act of destroying the character of a place. We received the same response from a resident of Levanto, who also thought that Camogli had stayed unique among the fishing villages.
I agree with other posters here, who say that "authenticity" is sort of a touristy word - better to describe what appeals to you subjectively instead of using terminology that sounds like the passing of a judgement.
Joe
Posts: 231 | Location: Israel | Registered: 21 July 2007
I agree with other posters here, who say that "authenticity" is sort of a touristy word - better to describe what appeals to you subjectively instead of using terminology that sounds like the passing of a judgement.
Joe
If in doubt always pass a judgement - nothing like a bit of provocation to liven up debate
But on a slightly more relevant note, I am foten struck by the contrast between Foiano and Cortona. The former is very modern with plenty of shoebox architecture while the latter conforms to the picturesque hilltown standard. However, I am struck by the lack of young families living in Cortona and that gives it the hollowed out feeling of a grand but vacant museum off season. Foiano on the other hand is not pretty but full of families (property costs, etc. still surprised that young people can pay €2k per mq. for apartments in Foiano and Camucia).
Posts: 220 | Location: Tuscany | Registered: 08 April 2008
Let's just disagree on this- when in doubt, ask before you make your judgment, actually don't make it, even when you are sure, because you just have no idea.
quote:
Originally posted by jeremiahisrael: But on a slightly more relevant note, I am often struck by the contrast between Foiano and Cortona. The former is very modern with plenty of shoebox architecture while the latter conforms to the picturesque hilltown standard. However, I am struck by the lack of young families living in Cortona and that gives it the hollowed out feeling of a grand but vacant museum off season. Foiano on the other hand is not pretty but full of families (property costs, etc. still surprised that young people can pay €2k per mq. for apartments in Foiano and Camucia).
Jeremiahisrael, Historically "new families" have always filled the outskirts and the new construction in the area. The older will keep the family house, the younger will g somewhere else. To this you can add also the trend of country living. Younger people looks fr areas in which they can buy/rent housing with a little land, so the can have an animal or two and have their vegetable garden. The kids that don't care about living in the country will go where their studies or jobs are.
Property values have always been really high, and with the popularity of the town, it has just gone up. A lot of the road in off season are empty...of tourists. But there is still a lot of people around. Cortonese, Valley People, even Castiglionesi and Foianesi.
Cortona is always the same, doesn't change. Ok,have you ever heard the song "Che sarà?" No not the one sung by Doris Day, the other one
Pease mio che stai sulla collina disteso come un vecchio addormentato La noia I'abbandono sono la tua malattia Paese mio, ti lascio vado via. Gli amici miei son quasi tutti via e gli altri partiranno dopo me peccato perche' stavo bene in loro compagnia Ma tutto pasa, tutto se ne va.
Village of mine that lay on the hill as an old man sleeping boredom and abandon are your diseases village of mine I am going, I am leaving you.
Almost all my friends are gone the others will leave after me too bad I was happy with them but everything pass, everything goes Written by Franco Migliacci - cortonese; Jimmy Fontana and Carlo Pes performed by: Jose Feliciano and the Ricchie e Poveri 1971.)
This song has been written by a Cortonese- franco Migliacci . And talks about Cortona in the early 60es. Now, our notion of "authenticity" make us think about Italy as an island of happiness where older ladies in black handkerchiefs tend to happy children strolling around shoeless. About people gathering for coffee every moment. About an almost bucolic and romantic life. That is "authenticity" . REALITY on the other hand talks abut periodical and recurrent migration fluxes. About job crisis and unemployment. About banks, and taxes, and mortgages that raise up. About lack of tourists that make also the tourism industry collapse. In the 60es people was forced to go away t make a living, now too. Kids would look for the best job opportunity IN THE AREA so to stay close to their family, now they look for the job they have studied for. But, on weekends, in late afternoon, when a good dinner is needed, when a little night life is wanted, younger people all come up here. It is always been like this. And mind you I haven't come to Cortona for few hours on a sunny day in the summer, I live here since I was 11 -I am 43. So this is one of those moments.
People doesn't have money or fears to loose the little they have, and don't go anywhere, cities are empty, except for the locals that fill the open bars and pasticcerie on Sunday morning, and everybody, including locals, in the dead of the winter -this one is really cold- will gather at friends houses or in restaurants. As I have said before, wait before celebrating Cortona's funeral. It is here, almost untouched for thousandth years, always considered the "salotto buono della Val Di Chiana". I can bet it will stay for a while longer.
I have radically changed my views of the word "authentic" since being here. I used to believe -- wrongly-- that somehow Piemonte was more "authentic" than parts of Tuscany because we have less tourists. I was wrong.
Wherever people live, wherever people raise their children and try to earn their way, authentic life is taking place. Maybe it's not as "scenic" as we want it to be. Maybe people have chosen to forgo living in a stone cascina for an apartment in the city, because the stone cascina can't be heated up with out spending a fortune and the city is more convenient. That city apartment, and the life which takes place in it, is no less authentic than the summer grill evenings at the cascina.
All of us, who lead lives and try to keep out head above water and move forward with dignity, are leading authentic lives. It is no different here in Italy. So facades are made more beautiful for tourists. So the buses come, and they go away, and the people still live and try to lead their lives. As authentically as anyone else.
This whole concept of what is authentic and what is not authentic has come to be a worm for me -- a worm that eats at me. Rapallo is a fancy Italian seaside resort. Right. Because it has hotels and a port it means it is less authentic than Camogli? Stop. It is just different, just like Cape Cod and the coast of New Hampshire are different. The Cape gets more tourists than New Hampshire, but does that make the Cape not authentic New England?? I prefer going to a fishing village, so I go to Camogli. Do I think because I prefer that that the shop keepers in Rapallo are less authentic? Of course not.
Acqui is non touristed. But less authentic than Cortona? or Pienza? Of course not. The Cortonese and the Pienzese (is that a word) gather just like the Acquese do and talk about life and their kids and the world. It's all real, just like every encounter in every corner of the world. Where there people trying to live and be happy, there is authenticity.
Originally posted by jeremiahisrael: However, I am struck by the lack of young families living in Cortona and that gives it the hollowed out feeling of a grand but vacant museum off season.
We spent a week in Camucia several years ago. I admit that we only spent one day in Cortona so I don't want to sound negative about Cortona. It was a beautiful town but it felt like a movie set to me. Camucia on the other hand was nothing to look at but we loved it. We ate in a small pizzaria that doesn't get much tourist trade. When we ordered off the menu the owner called in mama. She spent the next two hours feeding us the most incredible meal you can imagine. We really enjoyed seeing Cortona but we loved "living" in Camucia.
OK - I'll jump in too. This is only my VERY subjective point of view. For me authentic does not have anything much to do with antiquity, beauty, or history. It applies to towns that have a "real" life apart from foreign tourism and maintain a distinctly Italian sensibility. Some of these towns have a very strong tourist presence, but maintain a healthy balance. I can perhaps describe this best with an example. On one of my early trips to Italy I spent three weeks in Milano Marittima, a modern Adriatic beach resort just south of Ravenna. My initial impressions were not good. It was not the idealized picture of Italy that I had in my mind - no centro storico; a lot of non-descript block hotels, bars, and restaurants. Early on I described it in a post card as "the Jersey shore in an Italian suit." It turned out to be one of the most fun trips I've had and gave me a new perspective on Italy. This place was full of Italians on vacation. It was like the Italian spirit on steroids. I loved it! Although the town would not exist without tourism it was Italian tourism and in its own way as "authentic" as any place I've been in Italy. The experience also helped teach me some "slow travel" lessons. Number one: first impressions can be dangerous and highly misleading. I always try to reserve judgement. Number two: you can never get a real feel for a place on a day trip. I make day trips and, of course, I do form impressions. Some places beckon a return for further exploration and some do not, but I realize that a day trip gives only a very imperfect picture of the life of the town. One more bit of pontification here: I would like to add my positive affirmations for Cortona and Pienza. I have only made three day trips to Cortona, but I lived in Pienza for a month. The towns certainly have a life apart from tourism. They have tourists, but they don't exist for tourism. Thank you for all of your good comments - very interesting! Matt
Here is another gentleman, in Volterra, who believed in doing his craft by hand. He didn't care for the machine made pieces of alabaster found in the stores. He was a joy to talk with.
Posts: 594 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: 02 December 2005
I lived in Pienza for a month. The towns certainly have a life apart from tourism. They have tourists, but they don't exist for tourism.
Matt, great post. And what you have said about Pienza is probably true of many, if not all, of the places seen at first as being too touristy. It certainly is true of where we lived for a year--Greve in Chinati--which is seen by many as too touristy. But, as you settle in, you find that it has its own soul and exists apart from the tourists.
Well Matt you have really gotten a lot of folks thinking on this issue. Your right authenticity shouldn't be confused with antiquity. I concider the most authentic things in Italy to be the food, the wine and especially the Italian people. You might extend that to all the wonderful things created by the Italians that have their own special italian flavor both past and present. the Italian Buildings, the Italian fashions, even those colorful Italian telivision shows. I was at the Venetian in Las Vegas last week and it was a fantasticly well done reporduction which has its place in Vegas and Disney World it just wasn't Authintic. It was one of the few places in the states that I had a italian meal that tasted like it was cook in Italy and magicly transported to my plate in Vegas. Now that brings to mind another question, can Authentic Italin food be experienced in countries other than Italy? In my opinion, yes but it is very rare. I love Italy and I'll be going back for my 25th visit in April for another dose of authenticity. One more thing don't be too down on tourist, they pump the life's blood in to many Italian towns that keeps them alive and authentic (i.e. Venice, San Gimignano) as opposed to a goast town like many towns in the south of Italy where people simple had to get up and move for lack of any way to make a living. Keep on traveling, Rick
Let's just disagree on this- when in doubt, ask before you make your judgment, actually don't make it, even when you are sure, because you just have no idea. ...
Thank you for that polite reply.
My point was that families (man, woman and children) are not separable from determining the 'authenticity' of a inhabited environment. The quality of the expectations and interactions of everyday life are what matters to me and without families they are undernourished. Cortona is rapidly becoming a hybrid between an old peoples' home and a theme park with predictable attractions. So few young people were attracted to the Tuscan Sun this year that next year's will feature a more 'pop concert' feel to it. Young people will choose high rise urban over a decorative cemetery anyday. The trick is to find some way of striking a balance - one reason why I like Sans Sepulcro very much.
Posts: 220 | Location: Tuscany | Registered: 08 April 2008
Originally posted by jeremiahisrael: Cortona is rapidly becoming a hybrid between an old peoples' home and a theme park with predictable attractions. So few young people were attracted to the Tuscan Sun this year that next year's will feature a more 'pop concert' feel to it.
It is very funny you say that. I had many complaints from foreigners residing in Cortona that too many joung people clubs are open -they are 2 "Route 66" and "The Lion's well" both are packed with younger people. They are loud but generally speaking very well mannered. They'll limit themselves into drinking outside the bars at night and chat and gather. On route 66 you can dance. Normally -when we were younger, we would go away because the only disco open in Cortona was considered "posh" and we were punks. So on this point of view Cortona has grown. Also on weekends you'll find restaurants and clubs packed with younger kids.
quote:
So few young people were attracted to the Tuscan Sun this year that next year's will feature a more 'pop concert' feel to it.
Fortunately "The Tuscan Sun" is not the only musical festival that happens in Cortona. It is a classical music event, and it's importance is increasing every year, and I don't think that even in US so many kids are attacted by it. The presence of Sting has been announced for the last 2 or 3 years, I don't know if Barret is going to do that, but if he is, we'll be happy.
Many other things are organized for the kids, The fortress holds a cultural young center, hosted and promoted by Jovanotti that is increasing it's importance also. It has just started, let's give it time.
There were several convcerts of modern music last year, Caparezza, Cortonadance, the Pig party -yes we have also that. Yes, younger people tend to live in Camucia, or in the country, but they come up to have fun, isn't that what's important?
As per San Sepolcro, I go there for job, I don't like it.
BTW If you go to Cortona today, you'll find it empty. Not even shops are open. It is a dead museum? No it is freaking cold. There is a windstorm. Nobody is around. It is Christmas, for Pete's sake, I claim the right to keep closed and stay home with my family.
That said, I really wish I can meet you one time, J.
For me the word "authentic" is part of the problem. I think what most of mean by "authentic" is really "the Italy of my dreams, the Italy as I imagine it, with a simpler, slower way of life, unspoilt by tourists, tacky souvenier stands and high prices". But yet, for thousands of years Italy has been a toursit destination, and someone has always been ready to set up a stand to sell whatever it is the tourists want/need. Can you imagine how many people set up stalls on the day of a big function at the Colliseum, selling food and drink, maybe lucky amulets or silly souveniers for the kids?
What I mean when I talk about the 'real' Italy is the unspoilt beauty and a way of life that isn't dependent on tourists. A typical small town where life continues pretty much as it has for years, yes, with concessions to the modern world, but still, someplace that's not over-run with tourists and their guidebooks waiting to check off the next 'must-see' frescoe. but still we all want to see that incredible frescoe, that ancient site or glorious church, so inevitably some places will be tourist attractions while other smaller places nearby will simply continue as they always have, providing a home to those whose work is more anonymous, maybe a farmer or a craftsman like those in the pictures posted above....just people doing their jobs, not seeking fame and fortune.
We tell people that life in San Venanzo compares more to life in small town America back in the '50's or early '60's. Almost everyone in the village of 1600+ is related in one way or another, and most have lived here all their lives. The daughter of an Italian friend did move to London for a few years, but now she and her husband are back in San Venanzo, raising their family and running a small bar. For most of our neighbors, America is still a place of amazing possibilities, and many are puzzled as to why we'd want to live in San Venanzo. We try to explain that life in San Venanzo is more simple, slower, and more enjoyable. For us, it's the Italy of our dreams, and I suspect that many others also share the dream of a simpler place and time, and that's what they're searching for when they search for the 'authentic' Italy.
Originally posted by Barbara (and Art): For me the word "authentic" is part of the problem. I think what most of mean by "authentic" is really "the Italy of my dreams, the Italy as I imagine it, with a simpler, slower way of life, unspoilt by tourists, tacky souvenier stands and high prices". But yet, for thousands of years Italy has been a toursit destination, and someone has always been ready to set up a stand to sell whatever it is the tourists want/need.
You are so right Barbara! Cortona in its essence has stayed the same, the people has stayed the same, we gather and see each other like always, we go in thousandth at the midnight mass at Christmas, and we wish each other merry christmas like always, we meet and chat, and all our merchants wants to know what we did for Christmas, and where we are going for new year's eve. It is like a big family. With modern concessions, the cellphones, the computers etc...all Cortona is on facebook,there is also a Cortona fun club on facebook. It is americanization? No, its the wrld that goes. So, as Barbara say, THIS is reality and authenticity, the rest is a dream.
Pienza comes to mind as perhaps not being an authentic town.
Pecepe, what in particular brings Pienza to your mind when you think about towns not being "authentic"?
I must say the comment about Pienza "not being an authentic town" caught my eye, and has given me something to think about. I moved here permanently with my husband this past August, and am now a card-carrying resident of the town--but, this does not make me an expert on life here. But certainly, I have been much more than a daytripper, and so would like to comment myself.
In general, regarding the connotation of the word "authentic" in my mind/heart/perception when I visit a place, usually means, "I saw only 'real' Italians, and not a bunch of tourists (like me!)." It is an experience of looking onto a scene that appears to be devoid of other outsiders looking in, messing up the scenery, gawking at how authentic everything is (or not), etc. And so, using just this simple way of thinking of the topic of this thread, this means for the places that have "tourist attractions"--like, for example, beautiful Renaissance buildings built by a former pope who was born in this tiny town--it may be doomed (for some people) as far as being "authentic", because it simply attracts too many outsiders.
But, behind those counters in the stores, and standing at the counters at the coffee bars, and sitting on the benches in the park--are "DOC" Pientini (the official word for those who are from Pienza).
We are really enjoying the winter months here, when there are very few tourists....and we get a better feel for life among the citizens of Pienza.
This week we are enjoying the Panforte Tossing Tournament--which will last for 5 days, with the final championship match being on the 30th of December. As far as I can tell, my husband and I are perhaps the only English-as-a-First-Language people in the crowd. I am certain we stick out like sore thumbs, but the Pientini are a welcoming group!
Here are excerpts from an article in the International Herald Tribune (http://tinyurl.com/97rsoy):
“But Pius also bequeathed to posterity a more public monument to himself, one grander, more eccentric, more richly emblematic than any other papal memorial. He transformed his remote home village of Corsignano, a hilltop hamlet amid the rolling countryside south of Siena, into a miniature ideal Renaissance city, renaming it Pienza ("Piusville") in honor of the title he took as pontiff.”
“…The core of the project involved laying out a new piazza, flanked by a cathedral, family palazzo, bishop's residence and city hall. Bernardo Rossellino was chief architect, but Pius was a constant participant, defining what he wanted, sometimes in the most minute detail. The main components were finished in the astonishingly short time of five years. Encouraged by these major works, other individuals set about rebuilding and expanding the rest of the fabric of the city…”
Reviewing the dictionary definition of authentic again:
authentic adj 1: conforming to fact and therefore worthy of belief; "an authentic account by an eyewitness"; "reliable information" [syn: reliable] 2: not counterfeit or copied; "an authentic signature”
So I guess one could argue that Pienza is an authentic transformation of a remote Toscana village into an “ideal Renaissance city”.
Then we could discuss the difference between “connotation” and “denotation”.
Peter
Posts: 1632 | Location: Essex Fells, NJ and Longboat Key, Florida | Registered: 21 July 2002
I hope the panforte is still edible after 5 days of tossing! We first met panforte in Pienza and buy some more whenever we return. Don't know how "authentic" it is but it certainly tastes good to us.
Posts: 1047 | Location: West Sussex, England | Registered: 08 February 2007
Originally posted by Barbara (and Art): What I mean when I talk about the 'real' Italy is the unspoilt beauty and a way of life that isn't dependent on tourists. A typical small town where life continues pretty much as it has for years, yes, with concessions to the modern world, but still, someplace that's not over-run with tourists and their guidebooks waiting to check off the next 'must-see' frescoe. but still we all want to see that incredible frescoe, that ancient site or glorious church, so inevitably some places will be tourist attractions while other smaller places nearby will simply continue as they always have, providing a home to those whose work is more anonymous, maybe a farmer or a craftsman like those in the pictures posted above....just people doing their jobs, not seeking fame and fortune.
In all this discussion, I think something fundamental has been left out... tourism is not something that happens as an invasion which pushes aside the locals who are relegated to some marginal place where they keep doing what they have always done. We should not forget that in many places in this country "anonymous jobs" ARE indeed tourism-related... many places would have way less "authentic" Italians without tourists. Tourism is one of the main source of income for Italians, so finding tourists in places where there is some stuff to see IS what makes possible for Italians to keep leaving in those places, instead of having to abandon small centres to migrate to large cities and starve hoping for a job in a bank or in a school. Or even migrate to another country. Montalcino was a depressed, starving wreck in the early 80's before some marketing genius made it what it is today.
So, for me authentic describes a place where people live their lives in a way which is normal for their culture (i.e. which goes unnoticed to their fellow countrymen; which seems a normal thing to do). In some places, like Florence, Cortona and Pienza, or even Pisa and Lucca, that means catering to tourists mostly. Then we can go home and be authentic Italians, make pasta, pizza, drink a glass of wine with our meals, etc. with the money we have earned thanks to the work we do with tourists. Am I less "authentic" as an Italian for that? No, it's just that tourism here IS what is normal, it has always been, it will always be (hopefully).
To get authentic stuff all you have to do is to try and do what the average Italian of today would do even if that does not match the stereotype.
Here are a few of my definitions of people, places and things authentic that I've seen in Italy: ~ A laundry around the corner from my apartment in Venice. Real people doing real work every single day for real Venetians, from 7:00 A.M. - 6:00 P.M.
~ The fish market in Venice. Real people, again.
~ The bookbinder 2 doors down from my apartment in Venice, right beside the bridge across the canal to San Giorgio dei Schiavoni. The owner makes books. Authenticity personified for me.
~ Il Girasole, Alessandra's store in Cortona. Authentic as you can get...both Alessandra and her store!
~ Osteria del Teatro in Cortona. It is located on via Maffei and serves the most amazing food. Ask Alessandra, she'll show you the way. Real people preparing read food for other real people and for tourists!
~ Cafe Principe in Florence. A small cafe operated by a delightful couple. They prepare all food and serve it with such care. It's very authentic, in my eyes!
~ All of the supermercatos, corner markets, green grocers in any city, town or village. People making real food available for everyone.
There are so many examples that I can think of. Authenticity exists in every corner of the country for me. Anytime I see people are doing what they do in their everyday lives, making a living, taking care of their family and friends...that's authenticity for me. It occurs in the largest city and the smallest village, in the vast Vatican or in the little church on the corner.
I think that authenticity is defined differently for each of us...I hope you've enjoyed reading about mine!
“An authentic life is the most personal form of worship.” ~ Sarah Ban Breathnach Brenda
Authentic handmade pumpkin amaretto pasta from a small shop on via Garibaldi in Venice...
Originally posted by Pecepe: Here are excerpts from an article in the International Herald Tribune (http://tinyurl.com/97rsoy):
“But Pius also bequeathed to posterity a more public monument to himself, one grander, more eccentric, more richly emblematic than any other papal memorial. He transformed his remote home village of Corsignano, a hilltop hamlet amid the rolling countryside south of Siena, into a miniature ideal Renaissance city, renaming it Pienza ("Piusville") in honor of the title he took as pontiff.”
“…The core of the project involved laying out a new piazza, flanked by a cathedral, family palazzo, bishop's residence and city hall. Bernardo Rossellino was chief architect, but Pius was a constant participant, defining what he wanted, sometimes in the most minute detail. The main components were finished in the astonishingly short time of five years. Encouraged by these major works, other individuals set about rebuilding and expanding the rest of the fabric of the city…”
Reviewing the dictionary definition of authentic again:
authentic adj 1: conforming to fact and therefore worthy of belief; "an authentic account by an eyewitness"; "reliable information" [syn: reliable] 2: not counterfeit or copied; "an authentic signature”
So I guess one could argue that Pienza is an authentic transformation of a remote Toscana village into an “ideal Renaissance city”.
Then we could discuss the difference between “connotation” and “denotation”.
Peter
Peter, the discussion is endless if we want to. But. Pius II was pontiff in 1458, while Columbus was still trying to convince Isabel of Spain to finance his sea trip to the Indias.
So to me Pienza is a "real" town, lived by real people.
Gloria brought in a point that people tend to forget or omit. Italian economy is based on tourism. Tourism is everywhere and guess what because artistic and natural beauties are what we have. And that is what people want to see.
My understanding is that most people mix the word Authentic with No Touristy. And that is wrong. There is a reason why people doesn't visit the suburbs of Florence as Prato, or the suburbs odf Naples as Csavatore ofr Frattamaggiore.
Following your concepts those places are more "real" than, say Siena, Roma and Cortona, but really who wants to go there?
So next time you come to Italy, please don't go to Pienza - eewww- go to Prato or to the Osmannoro. Don't spen your week in Sorrento or Positano -notorious "tourist traps" but book an hotel in Scampia (while avoiding bullets) r Afragola or better, in Secondigliano -where, BTW the last criminal shooting occurred yesterday, guaranteed, no tourists.
The essence of Italy is it's beauties, but mostly its people. Going in a vacation forgetting one of these is like going with a band on the eyes. You'll miss out most of it.
About 12% g.d.p. on average. The figures can vary according to different approaches in computing the rate of investments in infrastructures directly related to tourism. Of course locally the contribution may be higher.
I believe that percentage refers to actual tourism businesses, but we should not forget the services (local stores for instance, cleaning services, laundry services, etc.) that are not considered tourism-related businesses but which certainly benefit from the number of people in loco.
Here's a thought... I know a few people who go looking for authenticity, as in un-touristy. Then, when they find it, they often complain about the lack of the very services that are available in the tourist centers. Isn't that a little like biting the hand that feeds?
“The average tourist wants to go to places where there are no tourists.” ~ Sam Ewing Brenda
Yes Brenda, I've had this experience as well. I remember a friend who complained to me horribly how she couldn't understand why she couldn't get a normal -- meaning American -- cup of coffee in Italy, and went so far as to bring a Mr. Coffee maker with her on her next trip, while she was searching for 'authentic' Italy.
This topic is clearly fascinating. My opinion continues to be the same as my earlier post. Subjectively, everyone can search all they want for whatever means authentic Italy to them. To me, it's all authentic, it's all real. Good, bad, or whatever, it's all Italy. I'll take it just as it is...
Fair points about some tourists not wanting to be around other tourists ( guilty as charged m'lud). There are some interesting and interested tourists out there, but perhaps we tend to recall the crass and ignorant ones..?
Gloria It's not tourism per se that is the issue for me, it's when tourism changes the place into a succession of tacky commercial ventures or a very artificial experience. Tourism doesn't have to be like that. We as tourists with an interest in the culture, can make sure we seek the authentic rather than the manufactured.
This really has been a very interesting thread to read and thanks again for the considered thoughts of all. I suspect a number of us will reflect on the thoughts here as we travel.
regards
Ian
Drink coffee, do stupid things faster
Posts: 330 | Location: UK | Registered: 20 September 2008
What an interesting thread, and a good opportunity to jump in for the first time…
Without getting into trouble using labels, I can describe my experience living in two very different small Italian towns for four months at a time.
The first, one of the “Borghi Piu’ Belli,” was a small town on top of a fairly large hill, without a train station, which left it somewhat isolated. It was completely walled and therefore, within the walls, perfectly preserved. It had a small commercial life (a market, a café, a couple of restaurants) and an active civic life in terms of events and festas. A number of foreigners lived there, some full-time for decades, some seasonal newcomers.
In the end, while I appreciated the antiquity and continuing tradition, there was not enough going on to stimulate me on a daily basis; there were not enough what I call “moving parts” to make it feel lively, and eventually the beauty was not enough. In addition to that it had been “discovered,” (by Rick Steves and others) resulting in escalating real estate prices, an exodus of locals and an influx of foreigners who could afford to live there. To me, it was starting to feel more dead than alive, more like Disneyland than Italy.
Admittedly it was winter, and I know that in summer it overflows with locals, Italians, expat residents and tourists… a fairly complete contrast to what I experienced. But in late winter I moved to Marsciano, a larger town on a smaller hill (you can walk up it in three minutes) where I live in a house overlooking the main square. I am between the medieval quarter and the more “modern” eighteenth/nineteenth century section with modern shopfronts, but on top the town keeps its old feeling and doesn’t give way to modernity (and all the necessary amenities) until you are well down the hill.
Without explicitly intending to, I have stumbled on a combination of my two main requirements for “authenticity,” which I’ve realized are normally contradictory. The first is that I want the setting to be physically beautiful and unimpaired by ugly modern architecture; the second is that I want the town to have a life of its own apart from tourism. I want it to be a place where people live and work and play and raise families, all without looking over their shoulders to see whether they are attracting tourists.
There are foreigners who live here, and to be sure there are tourists, particularly in summer. But they never interrupt or overwhelm the healthy pulse of life, which bottom-line is my requirement for living in a place. I’m back this fall, two months into a seven month stay, and I love that I can get in my car, become a tourist, and visit all the places that lean more in that direction. But at the end of the day I love coming home and melting into the ebb and flow of ordinary people (Italian and otherwise) living their lives.
Welcome to Slow Travel, Marcia! Indeed, what a topic, and what a post, for your debut. We look forward to your continued participation in our discussions!
It's not tourism per se that is the issue for me, it's when tourism changes the place into a succession of tacky commercial ventures or a very artificial experience. Tourism doesn't have to be like that. We as tourists with an interest in the culture, can make sure we seek the authentic rather than the manufactured.
that is really the defining factor for me. If the boutiques outnumber the alimentarii then it's starting to be unauthentic to me. Another place that has cesaed to be authentic, IMHO, is Carmel, CA. It's nothing but boutiques and art galleries and breathtakingly expensive restaurants.
Charnee Smit: Italian in a previous life.
Posts: 498 | Location: San Leandro, CA | Registered: 21 September 2007
Thanks for the great photos and the descriptions of simple scenes. They made me want to be there now! I guess my example would be the evening passeggiata, which still occurs in cities and in villages, without concern for whether people stroll past upscale stores or simple shops.
This also reminded me of an article in the New York Times last year about the Italian debate over whether traditional Italian dishes prepared by non-Italian cooks, often immigrants and especially in Roman restaurants, met the standards of tradition. Italians were quoted on both sides of the issue, but the summary was that if the food was made with local ingredients using traditional methods, the cuisine was truly Italian, no matter who was doing the cooking.
Italy has undergone many changes in recent decades, as the world has changed. I agree that we who love Italy often want things to stay the same, especially in the small towns. But I guess we have to be open to change there just as we are at home.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kim,
Sometimes , and mostly this is not the case on ST, it seems to me that the "Authentic" Italy that somebody is seeking is still the Italy of the 50es. Take Cortona. In the past years we had 7 Alimentari stores, now we have 4. We had 4 hardware stores, now we have one. We had 3 pharmacies, there is one left.
It is not the tourist market that made them close, but the growing number of discounts and super grocery stores as Esselungas, Coops, Pams, Despars etc that made them close. The big utilities stores, the large pharmacies at better prices that are opening. Less and less women stay at home permanently, because they HAVE to work long hours, and they cannot afford in terms of time the luxury of a slow shopping between small shops. Coop is fine, it is all there, it is more efficient. Is this loosing a tradition? No, it is doing the same things in a more efficient way. Polenta is polenta, even if now you buy corn flour at the supermarket instead of grinding it on your own on the family mill stone.
Many families are starting to cook cus cus or other foreign foods, almost everybody I know have Soy Sauce in their fridge. It is a loss of tradition? No it is an addition of new ones, as Italy in the last 30 years has been the destination of immigrants that then stayed here and started to be part of our world. It would be unfair to accuse Italy to loose its tradition for this, it is not an hermetic world, this one. The greatest things that the world has produced in terms of technologies and art and everything else came from people mixing.
Going to Castiglion Fiorentino in 30 years from now and hoping to find it just exactly the same is like condemn it to a future of ignorance and separation and poverty. Our kids shouldn't go to school and dream to be scientists because we should have the stone mills still working, or hearding cattles? Wouldn't it be like pushing the conservation of "traditions" to its illogic limit? Wouldn't it be the ultimate "Disneyalization" of tourism? As Gloria said, tourism is an essential part of the Italian economy, somebody said 20%, I would say that at least 40% of the italian economy is directly or indirectly based on tourism. And not since Under the tuscan sun, or Dolce vita, or Vacanze romane, but since ages.
Italy has a great luck, our beauties and settings, our History and incomparable art. Our traditions will be untouched, AND will be integrated by other, and by the modern world that come.
No one should come here with the intent of watching the Italian life like an antropologist would study an unknown tribe in that had lived in an enclosed mouth of a dead volcano separated from the rest of the world, as you would go in a zoo. We progress as everybody else in the planet.
People should come here and enjoy this, be part of it, not seeing it from far, if this is what people is looking for, then they better stay home and watch History channel.
Again, the true spirit of Italy is alive and well in all Italians and all that wants to be Italians, because "Italians" is a state of mind, not a temporal or geographic definition.
PS It seems that I am mad, but I am not, I just get passionate when I explain things. And after all everybody is entitled to their opinion, right?
Polenta is polenta, even if now you buy corn flour at the supermarket instead of grinding it on your own on the family mill stone.
Many families are starting to cook cus cus or other foreign foods,
Not that long ago corn or tomatoes would have been foreign foods. You could argue north African foods are closer to traditonal Italian. At least for some areas of Italy.
So even the stuff that seems "authentic" is only authenic if you're using the right view point.
When non-locals talk about authenticity, we are never really sure. Notice the use of the word "quaint" that makes one's hair stand on end. Quaint are the religious geegaw stores at Mont Saint Michel, the hunky priest calendars on sale in Venice, the pagoda-shape phonebooths in San Francisco Chinatown. When a "local" talks about authenticity, it has all the more credibility. All good points, Alessandra, thank you. As for Italians taking to "foreign" foods more and more, I was delighted to find my piazza Farnese apartment well stocked with soy sauce and even the pungent Vietnamese fish sauce Ngoc Nam. But many an anthropologist has pointed out that Ngoc Nam was probably the same thing as, or something very similar to, the legendary garum of Pompeii. I love cultural full circles, don't you?
Topic Closed
guilty as charged m'lud). There are some interesting and interested tourists out there, but perhaps we tend to recall the crass and ignorant ones..?
