I love DDTraveler's idea of going in as a group to buy an apt or house. I know many people who have done exactly that with boats. Since I already have a place, I can't join in, but I think it's very do-able.

WE promoted that idea when marketing our house, but in the end it was just one man who bought it. Still, it's a good idea!

Buying property in a group can be fraught with complications--certainly not something to do without fully investigating the issues under Italian law. I know nothing about Italian forms of property ownership, but in the US, if you buy as tenants in common there are a number of pitfalls that must be addressed.

Some examples:

If you take out a mortgage or home loan as tenants in common, in general all the owners are liable if any one owner defaults. And even absent default, the amount of the full loan will be considered for each owner's credit rating. How will expenses for upkeep and repairs be handled, especially when the owners disagree about what's necessary? How about insurance? How will decisions be made about who can use the property when? What if one of the owners wants or needs to sell his or her share in the property--will the others be able or be forced to buy it, or to allow a sale to anyone of the seller's choosing? What if one owner wills his or her share to somebody who doesn't get along with the remaining owners or who wants to sell the share to a third party?

I'm sure that everybody who buys with friends wants to think that everything will be settled amicably, but it doesn't always work out that way. Add to that the complications of foreign ownership, and you get a lot of things to think about before taking the plunge.

One could solve the issue of common ownership if a US limited liability company was formed that owned the property. Then whomever wanted in would simple be a "member" of the Company and the organizational documents would rule how/when someone could exit the company (i.e. right of first refusal for remaining members, automatic buy-back at death, etc.). That being said, I am simply a US real estate attorney and have no idea if it is even possible for a US company to own property in Italy. Lovely thought though!

Engred makes a good point. The issues raised by KT can largely be handled through a corporate entity. I haven't thoroughly checked it out, but it is my understanding that there is no impediment to Americans forming and owning an Italian company that holds title to property in Italy. But whether you do it via a US corporate entity or an Italian entity, it would be wise for any group to avoid holding title in common, for many of the reasons KT mentions. The take-away point, though, as Engred says, is that KT's concerns can be addressed.

You've still got all the same issues.


How does the corp help with estate issues? The shares would be held by all the new owners. OTOH memory tells me non Italians can pick to have their home country rules apply for wills etc.

OTOH you'll still run into everybody wanting the one week a year. The fact when something breaks some one will figure it's the other persons fault.

My Italian grandfather had a great rule, which I think applies here as well...

If it's that good a deal, you don't need a partner and partnership is the fastest way to end a friendship.

The reality of all of this is that we ALL want to live in Italy as we enjoy but we enjoy it as tourists. It's a totally different scenario to live there... or anywhere else that's a vacation spot for that matter.

You have to deal with everyday life: fixing things, shopping, political issues, bill paying, etc... all of which we go on vacations to get away from.

The best suggestion in this thread so far was to take an extended stay of 3 months through a lease and see how you'd like it and then do it again during another season (not the same 3 months but in the same exact location) so you can truly see how you'd really like being there.

It may change an opinion.

I agree, the pitfalls of tenancy in common can be addressed by forming a corporate entity. But, of course, that make things a bit more bureaucratic than the idea of "let's pool our money and buy a property" may sound.

I really have absolutely no idea about Italian law. But, for example, US limited liability companies are entirely creatures of state law. As business entities, they may have certain tax filing requirements, minimum business taxes to pay, certifications required in order to do business outside the home state, etc.

I don't say that any of these types of issues are insurmountable--just that they require some thought, time, and money.

I can see that perhaps I was a bit flip in my suggestion of several interested parties to get together to purchase a place in Italy, esp as I have not the time, money or even inclination. However, I have seen this type of arrangement work for second homes in California (ski resort areas mostly). Families are required to come up with X amount of dollars (depending on number of participants and type of place to buy), so there is no mortgage -- the place is bought outright. Terms are set in advance for the allotment of weeks (often by annual lottery), requirements for monthly or annual payments for taxes, repairs, etc, not unlike homeowner association fees. Sometimes property management is used to help with ensuring repairs are made, renting out the place (if that's what's wanted by the parties), etc. If people are interested in owning a place abroad, I would think this would be a far less risky proposition than going solo, as it spreads the expense and the risk. Of course there are many details that would have to be worked out in advance, and likely attorneys in both countries would need to be consulted.

Having said all that, I personally would prefer not to be tied down to one area, and have the headaches of ownership.

I may be suffering from "HHI syndrome" = House Hunters International -- where a wad of cash and half an hour is all it takes to end up on a sandy beach in the Dominican Republic or a small hill town in Italy!

Owning a place in Italy is a romantic thought but it's good to read the real-life implications. Many places are no doubt older and are maintenance pits.

I have house near Hilton Head which is pretty much headache free. Turnkey, basically. I pay more in real estate taxes than residents and I have to pay to get things done (which in a new house are very minimal - lawn mowing, maid when I visit, etc). I wonder if the non-residency bills mentioned are similar to paying more taxes or if they are much more onerous.

Plus I have the bonus of being a 1.25 hour, nonstop flight away. However it's not Italy! I sometimes wonder if I should have bought in Italy or France instead but I'd visit even less and family/friends would be hardly at all I bet - especially if you use the amount of visits to my SC home as a guide - and that's easy to reach.

quote:

Originally posted by woodstock:
I wonder if the non-residency bills mentioned are similar to paying more taxes or if they are much more onerous.

The utilies are higher and non residents have to pay property tax. How onerous depends on use. I can't imagine somebody using the place a few months really noticing a few more cents a KW/h for electricity.

It's not uncommon for Italians to have second homes. I don't get the impression they need the same level of upkeep that's normal for North American stick frame homes. That doesn't mean a boiler can't break. A roof can't leak. etc

well..Slow Travelers...I knew I could count on you to make a most eclectic attempt to dispel any mystical reasons why I would venture to purchase a place in Italy while residing in U.S.A.. I'm still contemplating! I love Assisi! I can see myself living out the end of my life there. It has everything I need. Therefore, I will continue my search for the right place and venture to visit it 3 to 4 times a year until I fully retire. Life is a magnificent journey and I really hope my final destination is Assisi!

Peace and all that is good to all my fellow Slow Travelers!

The houses in the restored hill town, Borgo di Montemigiano, in Umbria are owned by members of a US partnership.

The entire borgo was purchased by this group. Seven houses were restored. Partnerships were sold in each house. They have anywhere from 1 to 6 partners each. Each houses' partners set and maintain the rules that govern the usage of their individual house.

Then the borgo is operated as a condo community with the partnerships of each house paying their share for the management and upkeep of the common grounds, pool, streets, & infrastructure.

Just a footnote to "sometimes it is work to be an absentee owner".....went through several days of meetings with various people to get a gas line installed to our house last July. Just heard from my wife's cousin that work has not yet started (but that the cousin will "yell at them" for us).

But will they yell at the right person My plumber kept blaming the gas company. I finally gave up and went to the gas company who explained it was the plumber screwing up the paperwork. So I went to the plumber with a new copy of the paperwork. Had him fill it out while I watched then took it back to the gas company. That evening I had a gas meter installed

Will be interesting. The cousin just ran for a town council seat (think that's about the best translation)...she didn't get elected, but hope it means that she knows everyone that she needs to know.

When we left, the story was that the hard part was going to be getting permission to close the road to take the line from the main feed to our meter. Need more info on why the delays, but learned long ago that Italian clocks and calendars don't work the way that I always expect them to.

Another note....just got an update from our cousin and the word is "Nothing has been done".

We aren't going to Italy this year because of sons working over the summer and no desire to leave them behind to do who knows what to our house, car, cat, and general well-being of the neighbors....for now, hoping that by this time next year, the work will actually have been done and that our only concern will be sons (yes, I know, wishful thinking).

We've been contemplating some major repairs to our house, but think that the lesson is that one of us has to be in residence there to oversee the contracts if we want anything to get done (excuse me now while my wife and I jostle for control of the keyboard to see who can make the first reservations to take on that assignment).

An update on my long term lease. In January a friend who is a priest got a long term assignment to the Vatican. We gave him a long term lease (2 years) for basically what it costs us (lease payment, utilities, breakage).

The first of May the lanlord contacted us and said he has an offer to purchase the apartment and would pay us 500 euro to terminate the lease. We e mailed our friend and asked if we could terminate the lease. He was out of town (Rome) and just got back. He was fine with it and we have contacted the landlord and sent back the forms saying the lease has been terminated.

After a year of ownership we are still delighted that we bought our apartment in the Val d'Orcia. The house has a caretaker who lives down the street, which helps tremendously, as do the couple that lives full time in one of the other apts. in the building. We have people watching out for us and they email whenever anything is not as it should be. Just last week we were warned that there was a mouse in one of the apts. and they asked us if we'd like to have mousetraps put in our place. They even volunteered to check them periodically for any dead critters. I believe the secret to being an absentee owner is to establish good relationships with your neighbors. Every time we go to Italy we make a point to take our neighbors out to dinner to tell them how much they help us. It has made a world of difference in our experience as owners.

Agreed--good neighbors are key. In my case, literally, key. The front door lock was changed, and we were due to fly over in a week. I have friends in town, but I wasn't sure if they'd be around when we arrived. Plus, I have to confess, sometimes after a long trip, all you want to do is drag your suitcase and sorry carcass into the place, grab a drink and take a nap. All a long way of saying, my upstairs neighbor popped a key in the express mail to us. A perfect arrival, fuss-free.

In general, though, it's good either to have friends or relatives, who will look after the place, get a cleaning person to open it up, etc., or make friends like that. And dinner, etc., is the best way to do it. We have an easy relationship with our neighbors, their little boys know us, all four adults speak both Italian and English, so conversation is easy, etc. Plus, we get caught up on the neighborhood gossip.

How I like to hear these good reports. I have found two places in Umbria I would very much like to purchase. I have some good friends in town and I feel they would take good care of the property while I am away.

I believe you are right. Knowing people in the area is so important. How large is your apartment? how mush did you pay for your property?

Peace

Hi Luv. Go for it! The exchange rate is good right now and getting even better. There are a lot of great places out there for less than 200K euros. We have been able to rent our place for 10 weeks this year which helps to offset some of the costs. If your dream is to own a place in Umbria, this is a great time to attain that dream.

I am in complete agreement with Dragonphligh and NuccioP. Since we restored our place in Casperia 4 or 5 years ago, we have become good friends with a number of neighbors in the area, including a neighbor who takes excellent care of our place, meets and greets our guests, keeps the place clean, treats for critters, pays the bills (to the extent they are not paid directly from our bank account), etc. Between Rosella, our neighbor, Stefano our contractor, and other friends, things keep running, the mail is collected, we are alerted to problemi, etc.Without them we would be in deep do-do.

While there are definitely hassles associated with ownership of a place in Italy (or any casa vacanze in other countries, I would guess), I wouldn't trade our experience during the restoration process or after for anything. We can't spend enough time there yet, but once we reture we plan on spending three or four months a year there, occasionally using it as a jumping-off base for other trips(guess how much easier and cheaper it is to get to London, Athens, Cairo, Kampala, Istanbul, etc) from Rome than from Ausitn, Texas. We didn't spend an arm and a leg (we didn't buy in Tuscany or Umbria) and with the occasional rental, our place carries itself -- even in today's down travel market.

I will trade room service and a concerge at a hotel in Rome for the opportunity to sit in the sunset in our tiny giardinetto, sipping a glass of Sagrantino under our 150-year-old grape arbor, watching our newly-planted antique roses growing from the ground into which we spaded many bags of dried sheep manure and pulled weeds last March. Acquiring the roses and the manure is a story that will have to wait for another time. Suffice it to say, even after the newness has begun to wear off, and after we have had our place long enough to experience the predictable (and unpredictable) issues of owning a place originally built in the 11th or 12th century, we are still supremely happy with our decision to look for an afordable appartmento to restore in the centro storico of a hill town near enough to Rome to day trip there with ease. And even more delighted that search led us to Casperia and the Sabine hills of Northern Lazio.

I tell my kids it is always easier to think of reasons why not to do something; the difficult trick is to think simply, how can we do it? And, of course, determine in the process whether or not you are a complete idiot for doing so.

A most beautiful comment! I thank you for your
concise and perfect capture of the frank feelings of a true lover of Italian Culture!

Pace e bene

Luv, the apartment is small, about 50 mq--kitchen bedroom, and living room/second bedroom when needed. A big hallway, high ceilings. 130k euros. We did some finishing up, it's in centro, walking distance to all and the minimetrò.

As mentioned it is always easy to find reasons to say no to a project like owning a place in Italy.

As renters we couldn't and didn't make and modifications to the apartment. But just for chuckles let us assume that we did buy something in Italy.

My question is do italians do "DIY"? Do it yourself? I'm not talking about a little painting or possibly doing a roof garden, I am talking electrical wiring, moving walls, plumbing, sanding floors, laying tile, re-doing kitchens.

While I wasn't smart enough to marry a handy guy I was smart enough to be born into a family with 2 contractor brothers. How much work could they do for me? Are the hassles so exhorbitant that I might as well just hire the locals? Would I be allowed to live in a place I (and my relatives) rehabbed ourselves? Or would the local constabulary be so nit picky and upset that I could never get a permesso de occupancy or whatever permit it is I would need to bel able to occupy my rehab?

Here in the USA we regularly get into projects that are sometimes over our heads but we somehow muddle through and things turn out well. I have yet to see a home depot or even a hardware store on the level of True Value or Ace in Italy. I spent 3 days once looking for a place to buy a hammer.

This isn't saying that the american way is better, merely different. Do italians routinely hire workers to do all their repair jobs?

The dream of owning could be a reality if I didn't have to spend a fortune rehabbing but could instead rely on my friends and family's talents. They get time in Italy, I get free help. Sounds fair to me!!

I would say most Italians don't do DIY. That doesn't mean everybody of course.

If you have a small home the storage place for a bunch of tools is out of the question. So is the hassle of long term renos .

In general I think skilled trades are cheaper here.

Brico is okay. It's not like a true Home Depot but sells most things.

Pro places are out there to.


Hammer? Every large supermarket sells stuff at that level.

It's all the small stuff you don't know you need until half the house is taken apart that's a problem.

I can hardly keep up on maintenance and cleaning my primary residence much less think about doing so for a second one.

quote:

I would say most Italians don't do DIY. That doesn't mean everybody of course.

The apt we rented in Florence, the landlady hired someone to prune the olive tree in the courtyard. it was a small tree. I would have not hesitated to prune a tree that size myself and so all the time in my own yard.

Hello All!

This is a very relevant topic in my house right now! We are heading to Italy on June 21 with a major purpose of possibly purchasing a small home in the Puglia region. We would mostly rent out when we are not in residence (i.e. summer or long school breaks). My spreadsheet happy hubby would like to know what he should expect to budget for for things like electricity, water, gas, etc...I know some people use more than others, etc...we were looking at a small 2 bed, 1 bath apartment, probably refurbished or if not, we will put in new high efficient appliances. Any thoughts or additions we should add to our spreadsheet?

Thank you!

Cindi

The appliances and the use make a big difference.

I average around €20 a month for electric but it's all new and very high efficicency appliance. Most of that is running the boiler pumps for the heating system during the winter.

Water to the best of my knowledge varies widely between towns. I think I pay less then €50 a year.

Gas is mostly for heating. A cold winter I hit €600 a warm less then half that. Insulation etc all make a big difference in that. Plus Costal pulgia would be warmer then here.

Doesn't sound like you'll be resident so you'll need to add ICI. Phone? Internet?

and condo fees, sewage/garbage, SKY? If you are not permanent residents electricity is also more expensive for you. Also house insurance (if you're renting it out and not there) and someone to clean between renters.

LUV, the apartment within the walls sounds like a great bet. I like the price! Also the ability to wake up and enjoy walking around the town without having to get in a car sounds very liberating. I have no experience with fractional ownership--can't comment. I didn't know how often I'd get to use my place before we bought it, but I have been there 4 times since last August and will go again in October. Not a single regret to report.

Keep in mind, if you are renting it, that utility usage will be MUCH higher than if you are there yourselves - guests are not nearly as energy efficient as you would be yourself!

It's definitely nice to be within the walls, as we are. I occasionally have this country home fantasy. But, for example, I'm going over in a couple of weeks, and I won't have a car for most of the trip. I'll rent one for a week, to do some hiking near Perugia, and to do some household shopping and to wander a bit. But it's nice to be able to walk across the street to the alimentari. Five minutes and I'm on the Corso Vannucci, taking part in the passeggiata--or going to the bank.

We'll probably live there at least half of the time when we retire. Wish I could now--I'm an Italian citizen, so I have no complications regarding visas and the like.

If you want to do it, do it. Just be realistic about cost. Living there is different from being there on vacation. But I once spent a week in Italy for my job, which involved doing interviews for a story I was working on. And it was great to go home and work, transcribing my recordings, getting stuff organized. It was cold and rainy, and having a few rooms to wander around in, and cook my own food, and hang out with friends at night was worth every centesimo.

It's one thing to live in a country home 365 days a year. It's another thing when you're thousands of miles away. Sooner or later somebody will break in and if it's remote you won't even find out.

Nick & Nuccio both make good points about finding a place within the walls, especially if you are not planning on being there permanently, or at least much of the year. When we were contemplsting looking for a place in Italy to spend a few months a year, when we retire (remember this was pre-recession, when retirement seemed more feasible), I had this fantasy about olive groves in the country. My smarter and ever-practical wife pointed out that we have a semi-rural place here in the States, so why don't we look for a place in a town or village where we could lock the door and walk away without worrying about yard, plants, etc. She was so right on! It is nice to have an alimentari, farmacia, restaurants, etc., you can walk to, not to mention neighbors you can visit with and who can keep an eye on your place when you are gone. Our bonus is Casperia has no cars in the centro storico, so it is as quiet and peaceful as the countryside without the drawbacks.
Then, of course, we had to buy the adjacent giardinetto when it came available, so now we have dirt to care for and are regularly checking the area weather reports, hoping for rain enough to keep our newly-planted roses, etc., alive.

how marvelous slow travelers are!!! I gues you could say ... I really have no rose colored glasses when it comes to Italy! Despite it'smany problems, I am drawn to the culture, climate and people. I am just about ready to make an offer on the apartment, soooo very exciting, I have completed much research and know we have found a charming apartment within the walls of a magnificent city to enjoy and let out to friends and family the rest of the time. We will retire to this place of enchantment!


Pace e bene

That is wonderful!
Go for it and never look back!

quote:

Originally posted by NuccioP:
It's definitely nice to be within the walls, as we are. I occasionally have this country home fantasy.

hahah. me too!! I even catch myself looking online once in a while...but, in reality? no way - in the town is perfect for us as well. I also have dual citizenship with an EU country, so no visa issues, BUT, you must be a resident if you want to purchase a car (and not able to do that right now job-wise, tax-wise, etc. - we like our primary residence in the US) so, if I had a country house, I would HAVE to rent a car all the time...I usually do anyway, but it's really nice to know it is a luxury and not a necessity!