I want to have engraved for presentation in Italy a ring that inside paraphrases or truncates the Robert Browning quote: "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven for?" to ultimately:

"What a heaven's for..." or alternatively, "What a heaven is for..."

HOWEVER, inasmuch as we'll be in Italy at the time I would like the phrase to be written in Italian. Although I'm of Italian ancestry I don't speak or write it, so am wondering if somebody can help me with the correct translation. The internet has provided two versions:

"Ché cielo è per" and
"Che cosa è un paradiso per"

Would one or either be more correct or even correct at all? Many thanks!

P.S. No, she won't be browsing this forum.

I am not an expert...
but would think
A che cosa serve paradiso?

will see if I can find Browning in Italian , since they lived here!
do you know you can stay in their house in FLorence?

you need a big ring!

I appreciate your thoughts!

Mike

How quickly do you need this answer? I can contact some friends in Italy, to see what they say. I'll do it right now! And, what a lovely, romantic idea.

Yvonne

Diva is right -almost.

A cosa serve il paradiso???

Apparently the lines have been translated in Italian as:

Ah, ma l'uomo dovrebbe andar oltre ciò che può afferrare, O a cosa serve il paradiso?
or
o a che serve il paradiso?

I've been trying to translate it myself for years (met these lines when I was only a teenager, thanks to a teacher, and always loved them! ...my diary was filled with the lines written in different styles colours and forms ).

Allow me athought on the process itself. Poetry is, IMHO, not translatable. Poetry can exist and keep its meaning only in the language it was though in. I would engrave the ring with the quotation in English, and maybe add a book that includes the full poem in an Italian translation, or even better with both Italian and English versions on facing pages.

An Italian friend has just told me that he would translate the phrase:

... o a cosa il paradiso servirebbe?

I like the use of the conditional here...

maybe: a cosa servirebbe il paradiso?
But I definitely agree with Alice, after 20 years trying to translate the lines (at least to "explain" the meaning to non-english-speaking friends) I gave up.
.. if you really want to translate it at least please do not truncate it! In Italian, if you do not know the original lines the frase "a cosa servirebbe il paradiso?" does not mean much.

And following Alice's "thought on the process"... do not even bother to use the internet to translate anything more meaningful than the telephone guide!

I'm with the "don't translate" crowd...doesn't make any sense. No matter how deft the translation, anything beyond the original language doesn't "serve" either the poem or your purpose, I don't think.

If you'd like something in Italian (a lovely thought), I would consider an Italian poet. Ask our Italian posters for their recommendations!

I agree, Poetry is not translatable.
Maybe you could write:
"...fatti non foste a viver come bruti
ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza".
Dante Alighieri, Divina Commedia, Inferno canto XXVI, 116-120

:-)

One of the main considerations about this is that it is to facilitate an inscription inside a ring – size 6 ring – and physically there isn’t much room to place too many characters, so even as much as I’d like to recite the original phrase, I have no other choice but to keep it short.

My lady is already highly aware that the Browning prose is perhaps my favorite quote, and declaring that SHE is my Heaven by placing the slightly modified words of the quote, “What a Heaven’s for” inside the ring is something I am unequivocally set on. It is not my design to ask the question; it is my purpose to take some romantic liberty in declaring what is my personal definition of Heaven – and the answer is her. She will completely understand those words and what they are meant to convey.

The absolute correctness of the translation itself, honestly, is of small consequence. We are just a couple of otherwise average Americans who do not speak Italian, nor will run into too many people who do, so it will be perfectly adequate to use one of my versions, or any other suggested version. Even if I were to have inscribed “Yabba-dabba-DOO!” and tell her it is Swahili for “What a Heaven’s for,” then those words will still always be associated with the real meaning. And in that spirit the purpose of the inscription will be wholly realized.

That being said and because there hasn’t seemed to be a complete meeting of the minds on this (or another) forum, I’m going to go with “Ché cielo è per" because it is simple – easy to say and remember, not without it’s lyrical sound, and most importantly, whenever she sees those characters making up those words, she will know what it really means in respect to what I feel for her in my heart.

Thanks for your thoughts everybody, it has helped – I’m all set!!

Mike,

I'm glad that you have been able to reach a decision; and best wishes on a lovely event - the fact that you are going to such an effort speaks highly of your relationship and desire to bring happiness to the lady in your life.

Oh, and welcome to Slow Travel, hope we see more of you over here. It's a pretty nice place to hang out.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeVB:
One of the main considerations about this is that it is to facilitate an inscription inside a ring – size 6 ring – and physically there isn’t much room to place too many characters, so even as much as I’d like to recite the original phrase, I have no other choice but to keep it short.

My lady is already highly aware that the Browning prose is perhaps my favorite quote, and declaring that SHE is my Heaven by placing the slightly modified words of the quote, “What a Heaven’s for” inside the ring is something I am unequivocally set on. It is not my design to ask the question; it is my purpose to take some romantic liberty in declaring what is my personal definition of Heaven – and the answer is her. She will completely understand those words and what they are meant to convey.

The absolute correctness of the translation itself, honestly, is of small consequence. We are just a couple of otherwise average Americans who do not speak Italian, nor will run into too many people who do, so it will be perfectly adequate to use one of my versions, or any other suggested version. Even if I were to have inscribed “Yabba-dabba-DOO!” and tell her it is Swahili for “What a Heaven’s for,” then those words will still always be associated with the real meaning. And in that spirit the purpose of the inscription will be wholly realized.

That being said and because there hasn’t seemed to be a complete meeting of the minds on this (or another) forum, I’m going to go with “Ché cielo è per" because it is simple – easy to say and remember, not without it’s lyrical sound, and most importantly, whenever she sees those characters making up those words, she will know what it really means in respect to what I feel for her in my heart.

Thanks for your thoughts everybody, it has
helped – I’m all set!!

What a lucky lady!

quote:

I’m going to go with “Ché cielo è per" because it is simple – easy to say and remember, not without it’s lyrical sound,

Mike, I totally understand your priorities. However "Che cielo e per" basically doesn't make sense in Italian. I'd suggest you go with Alessandra's idea "A cosa serve il paradiso". It's only a tiny bit longer and it's an Italian phrase that makes sense in Italian (as well as translating it into English).

I agree with David, because if she ever does show off her ring to someone who speaks Italian, I think it would be nicer to have a quote that is at least grammatical.

A phrase that doesn't really make sense in Italian makes me think of those T-shirts (often sold in Japan, but I have even seen them in Italy) which have pidgin or nonsense English words strung together. I guess the idea is that people who don't speak English think there's some kind of cachet to wearing something with English words on it, but to a native English speaker they just look silly. And especially since the phrase is supposed to be poetic, it would bother me to have it ungrammatical in the language in which it's written.

But I do agree that it is a beautiful sentiment, and your friend is a very lucky woman!

- Roz

Welcoming, endlessly helpful. You guys are all great -- I mean that.

Yes, those are compelling reasons to consider "A cosa serve il paradiso." Even the simplistic AltaVista Babelfish translation engine says it means "To what it serves the paradise." I know it's all a loose translation. I'll have to discern whether or not the jeweler can make that fit. But again and ultimately, to the extent I can cause her to gaze at the ring and remember the words I stated or the symbolism they and the ring symbolizes, then I am perfectly content.

OK, now QUIT, will ya guys!! haha Here: have a gelato. [I know YOU'VE seen that before, but I haven't. Cute!]

quote:

Originally posted by MikeVB:
Yes, those are compelling reasons to consider "A cosa serve il paradiso." Even the simplistic AltaVista Babelfish translation engine says it means "To what it serves the paradise."

PLEASE, if you must translate, don't rely on Babelfish Italian! It is sloppy because the phrase can't be translated and hold the same significance as it does in Browning's beautiful phrase. It would be an insult to you, Browning, your sentiment, and your Love!

Maybe you should get a bracelet...!

quote:

Originally posted by venexiananan:
Maybe you should get a bracelet...!

hehe -- too late!

OMG -- from the "Things-I-Didn't-Know-But-JUST-Found-Out" Dept:

OK, so I'm a little unwashed behind the ears in some of the finer things, but... about Robert Browning and several facts from Wikipedia and the internet in general,

1. Fact: Robert Browning married Elizabeth Barrett (I didn’t realize). Coincidental Tie-In: My (ahem) 2nd wife and I recited EBB’s “How Do I Love Thee...” poem to one another at our nuptials by heart. [I guess I really have a kinship for that family.]

2. Fact: The Brownings lived in Florence (saw it above but just in passing). Coincidental Tie-In: After proposing on the Amalfi Coast next month (pretty romantic reason why it will be there), we will get to Florence several days later, and as that is a larger Italian city, that's where I independently thought might be a logical/good logistical place to have the engraving of his poem’s paraphrasing done.

3. Fact: The Robert Browning lines that have long and separately been my favorite “quote” are actually poetry. They were lines 97 and 98 of the poem “Andrea del Sarto” from his "Men and Women" book published in 1855. REALLY Coincidental Tie-In (and I swear to God): My lady's name IS Andrea!!!

This seems all too metaphysical -- but sounds SO right...


[BTW, I’m not on this forum SOLELY to pump you guys for ring inscription translation information. At the beginning of next month we will be staying in this order, Rome, (pizza stop in Naples) Sorrento, Orvieto (visiting only in Montepulciano), Cortona, Florence, Lucca (for Volto Santo Festival) (quick Pisa stop), Venice, night train to Zagreb (Croatia) to immediately continue to Hvar, Korcula and Dubrovnik (HER anscestry and where I’ll officially ask for her answer...), fly to Munich (for Oktoberfest), rental car up the Romantic Road, Frankfurt (to fly to SF via London). Regrettably, there were glitches with the rings which I am to have by Monday, so not time for the inscription here in the SF Bay Area.]

quote:

Originally posted by MikeVB:
They were lines 97 and 98 of the poem “Andrea del Sarto” from his "Men and Women" book published in 1855. REALLY Coincidental Tie-In (and I swear to God): My lady's name IS Andrea!!!

But Andrea del Sarto was no lady!

HEY -- The name's the same though, right?!?

But really, thanks for pointing that out. One of our hotel staff in Italy mentioned in an email after I'd said my lady's name was Andrea that in Italy it was a man's name. So I guess I should've known... But the association is still there so whatEVER! haha