Following is the text of a message I sent to Pauline. She asked me to post it here.

Thanks, Pauline, that was a major help.

Now I've got to ask you about something else.

I was talking to a friend the other day about the inherent contradiction between wanting to tell everyone about your trip and wanting to keep the quiet, special little places no one knows about as undiscovered as they are now.

I've got to admit, that's not nearly as tough a decision for me as it may be for you. If the place we're renting this fall turns out to be a little undiscovered gem, I'd be very ill disposed to sharing it with the thousands and thousands of people who visit the various sites on the web.

And that leads me to the question... why do you? The friend I was talking to told me that on a recent trip to Italy, she and her husband had dinner in two restaurants that seemed to be at least half-populated by people from AOL... not exactly the kind of thing you go to Italy for. But that's the direct result of helping and sharing.

The villa we're renting is very reasonably priced for the area and the time of year. If I posted that on the Rest of Italy board, I could kiss it good-bye for any return visits.

People like myself have to look elsewhere for their rental accomodations because Tuscany has become unaffordable. Thank God no one has written a book called Under The Calabrian Sun and that there's no special message board on AOL for Sicily, or we might not be going to Italy at all.

People like Rick Steves are marching through Europe like Sherman to the sea and leaving behind them a wake of stones that are no longer unturned. "Rick Steve's Undiscovered Europe" is a contradiction in terms.

I realize this is hypocritical on my part, considering all the help I've gotten from you, but aren't you concerned about destroying the very thing you love?

Maybe travelling to Europe should be a difficult and time-consuming thing to plan. Maybe that way you don't ruin it for yourself by making it too accessible to the kind of people who wouldn't be willing to put out the effort themselves... the kind of people who can ruin it for others when they show up and start to treat the place like Europeland and whine and complain when it turns out to be so very different from Epcot.

What do you think?

Hi:

Well, that was one of the most thought provoking posts I've read anywhere in a while. Thanks, BCorr (what's your name, BTW?). I understand your concern.

As far as vacation rentals, I'm not sure how popular some that have been posted on the AOL boards have and/or will become. Here at SlowTrav (do you like that, Pauline?), Pauline's already posted over 60 reviews of vacation rentals with many, many more to come. Most of those reviews are positive. I'm just wondering out loud what the effect on future bookings those reviews will have. At the moment it seems that the AOL boards have lots more traffic than Slow Travelers.

I guess my point is that I'm not totally convinced that by recommending a particular vacation rental, one would be guaranteeing that it be booked solid for the next few years, or you know what I mean without my hyperbole.......

It seems that the more reviews of places there are, statistically the attention that any one place will get will decrease, no? I've reviewed two vacation rentals here positively. I wonder how booked they are? One was pretty popular before I reviewed it, the other not.

Another thought -- it also seems to me that there are many, many beautiful vacation rentals to be had out there. I kind of like staying in different places although I do understand the enjoyment of returning to the same place year after year. That way, it even feels more like "yours".

Of course, the more popular a particular vacation rental becomes, the more likely the owners are to raise the rental price..... That's a consideration.

However, I've rented two different houses for this year -- again one that has been pretty popular and one that isn't. And they are priced very well -- on the low side for what we're getting, I think -- I'll have more of an opinion when we return towards the end of August.

As far as restaurants, that might be a slightly different matter. I, too, have hated walking into a restaurant that's been advertised in a guide book only to find too many other American tourists there for my taste. So that's why I might stay away from places that are recommended in multiple guidebooks. However, if the food at the restaurant is that good, then it's worth eating there no matter what. And furthermore, in that case, I'd appreciate my fellow Americans' good taste.......

Ok. Just thought I'd make those few comments and perhaps stir the discussion up a bit.

David

I have much, much, much to say on this, but want to do it when I have a bit of time to think. I will answer tomorrow. Thanks for the good discussion point Brian!

First I am going to move this topic to Travel Notes, so it won't get lost in the Italy postings.

So go back to the main page and select Travel Notes (under the General category) - the discussion continues there. Or click on this link: http://www.slowtrav.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000001

First I am going to move this topic to Travel Notes, so it won't get lost in the Italy postings.

First I would like to briefly explain why I created this web site. I have been in the computer software industry for over 20 years (Steve too). Most recently I had been doing technical writing projects working from home. I wanted to get the experience of creating a web site - I felt this was something that I need to learn professionally. But, for a web site, you need content - so I took all my travel notes that I had been keeping for years about the way we travel and made them into the web site. I never dreamed that so many people would find their way to the site or that I would be able to meet so many people who like to travel the way we do.

Once the web site had started, I became obsessed with it. Sometimes I don't know which I am more obsessed with: the topic or the actual web site development. I enjoy both.
I gave myself a year full time to devote to it (I considered it eqivalent to doing a masters degree - a degree in web site!). It has taken about a year full time to get it to the point it is at now - amazing that it could suck up that much time, isn't it? I figure another month or two, then it will go into maintenance mode - one day a week to post new reviews and new material. 30 minutes or so a day on the message board. It is at the point now where lots of other people are doing writing for the site - it is starting to feel like a community. Like it is not just my web site - and this feels great!

So that is why I created the web site. Now, why do I want to share all this special information? Because it is a wonderful way to travel and I think people and the world would be better off if more people traveled like this. I am not creating new travelers - people who come to the site are already travelers. I am, perhaps, encouraging them to slow down - to take a different kind of vacation.

Yes, wasn't it wonderful back in the 1950s, when the world population was half what it is now and we were just inventing sprawl here in the US, and the Italian villages did not see many tourists. Yes, it was wonderful for the upper classes - because they were the only ones traveling. Us middle class "hordes" stayed home; maybe did a camping trip once a year. That is how I grew up.

But now we have a world with a huge population, we have a rising middle class who can now afford to do the things that were once only avaiable to the upper classes.

I love seeing Americans in Europe - it is good for us Americans to experience a different way of living. Italy is full of tourists and has been for decades. Until the last ten years, they were Brits and Germans. Now there are lots of Americans too.

The Rick Steves hordes are the same people who have been going to Europe for 20 or 30 years, but just with a new guide book. In the late 80s Steve and I were part of the same hordes with our Frommer's Europe on $50 a Day. We had the trip of a lifetime as we took trains all over Europe for several months. We stayed in the Frommers recommended hotels and ate in the Frommers recommended restaurants. That book made it possible for us to travel and that travel changed our lives.

Rather than the analogy of Sherman marching to the sea and leaving no stone unturned, how about "a rising sea lifts up all boats". We are all going to Italy and having a wonderful time and learning about art and food and culture. We are seeing a different way of life. We are not destroying it. The whole world is changing everywhere. There are very few undiscovered places anywhere. I live in a major tourist destination - Santa Fe - but the tourists make it possible for this small town to have excellent restaurants, good bookstores, great art galleries. Okay, parking downtown is difficult in the summer...

Brian, I know what house you rented and the agency you booked with. Do you not think that agency is advertising as much as they can, trying to get as much business as they can? They spent enough on their lovely web site and catalog. My web site rewards the businesses who care about what they are doing, pick good vacation rental listings, inspect them regularly, deal well with Americans when booking. My web site tells people - these are the agencies to use, these are the good places. Maybe the other agencies, the ones that just list any place they can get and never care if the place is nice, maybe those agencies will change and care more or go out of business.

What I want from this web site, it to have a list of several agencies that can be depended on for having good listings and several estates or individual places that are good. I want to be able to travel all over Italy, staying in new areas each time and staying in nice, comfortable places.

I ask every poster who mentions a vacation rental on the AOL boards to send a review to my web site, and only 20% or less respond. Either people do not feel like going to the trouble of writing, or they think they can save special places for themselves. Maybe their special place will go out of business because they don't get enough bookings.

When you give out information with a generous spirit, as do all the people who write reviews for this web site, I believe you get back. You learn from others about places you didn't know about. You leave yourself open for new experiences.

Tuscany may be more expensive now because it is "discovered", but that will change. It is going through a boom period because of American economic conditions and the new books about Italy. Just like what happened in Provence in France in the early 90s. Umbria is becoming more popular, so is Lazio; things will spread out. I don't really find Tuscany that expensive (there are many affordable vacation rentals) - and I still love Tuscany. There are many towns that we go to explore and there are not many other tourists. And when there are tourists, we find more restaurants, better delis, more caffes, more news stands with the Herald Tribune.

In the end of this long rant (and there was plenty more that I wrote and then deleted), I would say that I want to tell everyone about what I think are the good places because I want the good places to stay in business, because I want to hear about other good places, because I want others to have the same kind of wonderful trips that we have.

And I tell people about driving, or ordering in restaurants, or how to do laundry because I am a technical writer and this is how I look at the world - as something to be explained. As a place where things are better if you have a good users guide!! (Also perhaps a reaction against my Catholic upbringing where they tell you that it is a mystery and you will never understand.)

Brian, I hope you will send me a review of your villa after your September trip, but if it is that special and you do not want anyone to know, don't send a review. But are you planning to just rent the same place again and again? Wouldn't you rather read more reviews on this web site and find other great places all over Italy?

BCorr, while I totally understand your feelings and have had a few of them myself I will tell you why I relay my experiences in Italy to others. While staying at a lovely Castello 2 years ago we had the time of our lives and were filled with such joy while we were there that I felt almost compelled to "spill the beans" shall we say. I lamented over this for a while but then I could contain myself any longer, I had to let the secret out! While it is difficult enough to actually get a room at this particular castello ( see I'm still being vague ) I felt that it was my duty as a traveller to let others enjoy it as much as my family did. Well, as it stands now, I have referred 4 parties in the last 3 months with another one going in a couple of weeks, and they have all got back to me saying how much they enjoyed their Castello and how it actually made their vacation to stay there. Well that was enough for me, I was thrilled that they all loved the place as much as we did and that I was able to help out when I could. Well it is almost time for my family to return and this time we are bringing along my close friend to experience heaven with me. I can only hope that it will live in her memories as it has in mine.

I'm totally loving this thread. Thanks again, Brian, for starting it.

Just a couple of brief comments. I think that Pauline's kind of won me over with her persuasive and passionate thoughts. I, too, love to share my experiences and get great satisfaction when my friends and loved ones have similarly moving experiences. If I can help someone have some happiness that I've felt, it's a good thing.

And speaking of passionate feelings, Liz, I was kind of varklämpt when I got to the end of your post. You're right -- it's terrific to share the wonder, excitement and joy of discovering and experiencing these things we have all found while traveling. Thanks.

David

Reply to Liz - And the reality is that five extra bookings this year is not going to fill up your castello - they have 15 apartments and 6 houses. Lets say a season of May thru October - 6 months is 26 weeks. 26 weeks times 21 places for rent (in just this castello) is 546 bookings!! You are responsible for 5 extra - 1%. Lets say there are all kinds of people who read your postings on Frommers and SlowTrav - that might bring it up to 10%. Still plenty of room at the inn.

And, although Liz will never believe this, there are lots of other wonderful estates:

Colle Lungo
Le Torri
Montestigliano
La Foce
Fonte de Medici
Lucignanello Bandini
Fattoria di Maiano
Vignamaggio
And more, more, more - these are just the ones I know about.

Okay David, varklämpt is not a word is it? Isn't this one of those psuedo-Yiddish words that Mike Myers made up with his Coffee Talk persona (Steve named the language lesson Caffe Talk in tribute to that). Mike Myers, a Canadian from the same town I am from, by the way...

quote:

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Originally posted by Pauline:
Okay David, varklämpt is not a word is it? Isn't this one of those psuedo-Yiddish words that Mike Myers made up with his Coffee Talk persona (Steve named the language lesson Caffe Talk in tribute to that). Mike Myers, a Canadian from the same town I am from, by the way...

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Ok. First I'll start with the note that in Yiddish this particular prefix is sometimes transliterated as "far" and sometimes as "ver" as in normal German. This one I'd probably spell "farklämmt" -- just my preference. You know that even though Yiddish is a combo of German, Hebrew, Polish, etc., it's mostly related to German. So when I'm trying to figure out something in Yiddish, I usually start with German, which I actually know better.

So, in looking this up as best I can in a German dictionary, what I can find is the German noun "Klammer" meaning clamp or clasp. There's also an adjective "klamm" which means tight, clammy, numb. In German one of the uses of the prefix "ver-" (now I'm getting in over my head -- if anyone's better at German than moi, correct me) is to intensify an action -- to make it "more so". (Italian is easier, let me tell you..) So put it together and you get something like "tightened up" or "clamped up". So yes, it could actually be a word. We should ask Mr. Myers, or better yet his mother-in-law.

More on this: In Yiddish this "far-" or "ver-" construction is very common as it is in German. And you find familiar phrases such as "farblonget", "vermischt" (literaly "mixed up", but colloquially "nutso"), "vertutzt" (kind of "all worked up into a neurotic frenzy") and my personal favorite "verpitzt", meaning "all dressed up as if you're going to a Bar Mitzvah and YOU are going to be the center of attention!!"

Anyway, that's the Language Lesson for tonight. Pauline, I bet Steve would be interested in this...... As I said, I'm really not an authority and if anyone knows more than me I welcome the info......

Back to Cawfee Tawk.

David

I'm so confused David! I'm having a blond moment!
Pauline, once again you seem to think that I am some kind of vacation rental slut. Well, I am a bit of a slut, just not a rental vacation one! You know how loyal I am to my place and you just can't get me to leave it... ever...unless of course the Medici's send over an invite.
I must admit that maybe the next time we go to Italy after this trip (2003) I think that we will stay further down south, Maybe 2 weeks in and around Montalcino and 1 week in Sicily. Oh dear, I sense myself starting to plan already, I need serious help! Maybe my castello will hire me to clean their toilets, as crazy as that sounds, I'd probably think about it!
Maybe someone can advise appropriate medication for me!

I swear that Steve told me that all those "yiddish" words used by Mike Myers were made up. Now he says, he never said that!! Steve also told me that there are no rattlesnakes in New Mexico and I believed that up until a couple of years ago. I wish I still believed it. I have to say that I pretty much believe everything I am told. (But, please, don't doubt the info on this web site - I am a good researcher!)

Talk among yourselves.

Ok. I'm indulging myself for one more post to this thread regarding Yiddish. But I'd love to get back to the original idea of it -- I'm curious to see what Brian might have to say regarding "To tell or not to tell".

Liz, if you're truly confused and want to email me, I'd be more than glad to try to further explain -- that is, if I'm capable of giving a coherent explanation.

And as far as Mike Myers and his mother-in-law, yes, I too had heard that most of what he said was made-up stuff and not real Yiddish. But not entirely true. I can't speak for much of it, but I did hear him say something about "schpilkes in his ginechtegezoink"..... Well, I don't know about "ginechtegezoink" -- that truly sounds made up to me. But "schpilkes" is a real word. In fact I even use it occasionally. One characteristically says "I'm on schpilkes" meaning, just about literally, "I'm on pins and needles" -- I'm nervous with excitement. I've also heard "I've got schpilkes im gatkes". "Gatkes" are "underwear", so put it together..... Yiddish is so expressive!

I have a theory about "verklämmt". It's almost a kind of cognate and perhaps Mike Myers (or some other writer) came "invented" it, but since it's elements are familiar, it's understood. And of course it's totally worked it's way into our normal vocabulary so now, to all intents and purposes, it is a word!

Now, maybe we'll get back to the original idea of this thread?

David

First, to Pauline: ... your the best .. I wanted to post as soon as I read your post.. i.e. that I fully agree with your point of view on full disclosure (and you can expect every detail (analog and digital) in my review after our trip) but then went on to read the rest of the thread .....
to David: I'm glad you came around to Paulines point of view ... Makes me feel better about you..... as to your Yidish (mother-in-law non-with-standing) Mike Meyers didn't make it up ... it's legit yidish .... but even though Yidish is a combination of German and Hebrew you can't use either dictionary ..... the meanings have too much to do with emotion to be literally translated!!
to everyone else: Isn't it great to know what to bring .. where to park ... how to maneuver etc etc before leaving ...I used to be a tour bus snob, but even learned the value of an experienced guide many many years ago on business junkets .. and this site (Pauline & Steve) seems to be peopled by some super people!!! AOL should be so lucky!!!

Okay, I declare a halt on the yiddish words on this thread (even though I started it).

I emailed Brian, the original poster, asking him to respond, but he didn't. I am guessing we won't get a review from him - unless he doesn't like the place.

There is another side of the to tell or not to tell issue and it is something my Steve invented, called the English Village Syndrome. This is what it is: you do your first and only trip to Europe. You go to London. You spend a week there, then go to a typical English village for a few days. Well the village is magnificent, it is perfect, you cannot believe it and you spend the rest of your life telling everyone going to England that they have to see Ivy-on-the-dale or whatever it was.

The reality is that England is full of incredible villages - they are everywhere. Whenever PBS starts another historical show in a perfect English village, we turn to each other and say "I wonder where they found such a nice village?" "ANYWHERE!!"

We once spent a month traveling all over Florida and disliked most of it except for Miami itself (very exciting). Many people told us the Florida panhandle was the place to go, so we did another trip and went there and, guess what, it was the same as the rest of Florida. We spent several years just traveling and always asking people for advice and ended up many times going out of our way to highly recommended places only to find they were not exceptional. Maybe the person just had a nice lunch there!!

So, I try to watch for EVS (English Village Syndrome) in the reviews that are sent to me. Is this the only place they have stayed in Italy or their first vacation rental? On the AOL boards there was someone last year who had a fabulous rental from an agency - it was their first rental - and their answer to every posting was to use this agency. Well, I had stayed in that one good place and then a few other not so good places, but she would not hear that the agency wasn't totally reliable. So she booked again and ended up in the Abruzzo (she speaks no Italian) in late October and was shocked that there was not much to do or see. Now she has crossed Italy off her list as a vacation place. A nice place in another part of Tuscany or in Umbria would have been much better for her.

Another thing to watch for is the overly positive reviewer. Some people do not want to admit that they stayed in a less than perfect place and will just tell you how great it is. Or, if you push for details, they make you feel like the bad guy by saying how it is not important what the place was like, that they were in Italy and Italy is so wonderful. Well sitting on a nice couch after a long day of exploring hill towns is wonderful too.

I had the owner of a very large agency (based in Boston, rhymes with Barker) tell me that the quality of the place did not matter, what mattered was the location because everyone is going to be out touring all the time anyway. I disagree. Slow Travelers want a nice place so they can spend part of their day just hanging out, pretending they live there. Maybe making a nice meal. Sitting on the porch and reading a book.

My personality is a bit of that "grass is always greener on the other side" - maybe too much. I am always looking for the perfect rental. I always want to try another one - just because Italy is so interesting that it is great to go to a slightly different area each time. Maybe this is why there is no question for me about "telling" - I'll be staying somewhere different next time anyway.

But, who knows, maybe the next place will be perfect and I will just go back every year to the same house.

quote:

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AOL should be so lucky!!!

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A note to Steve - many of the regulars here are also on those AOL boards - so they are just as lucky. And they get hundreds of posts a week. Thousands a month. There are some very knowledgable people on the AOL boards. The thing about this board is its more narrow focus. (Although people do keep posting hotel and restaurant questions!!) And we get non-AOL people. I have heard the CompuServe board are also incredible.

The AOL boards have been a bit slow the last few weeks - I think many people are on vacation.

Actually, I did post a reply, but it doesn't seem to have made it to the board. Must have hit a wrong button somewhere. I'll see if I still have a copy of it on my hard drive.

Arghh! I thought all that posting and the message not getting sent was going to be cured with this new message board. On the old one it frequently posted twice (because it took so long to post that people clicked twice). We will have to watch this one to see if there are problems.

Please post again Brian. You have to click the Post Message button at the bottom of the page and then wait. It displays a please wait message and then takes you back to the original thread.

Hi:

Good. I'm glad we're thru with Yiddish for the time being! Back to this thread. Yes, Brian, I'm looking forward to reading your response. I hope it's not a drag to find and repost.

Pauline, I enjoyed reading your comments vis-a-vis the EVS. I totally understand what you're talking about. It's true that with more travel, one tends to become more discriminating -- not that the glow of that first trip might not continue to be one of the strongest travel memories that you might have. But it's always refreshing to read a review that is written fairly -- fairly to the place being reviewed as well as to its intended audience. And one that really evaluates what is there, not just mere gushing. By nature, reviews are opinions and they should viewed as such. But if it's possible to shake off the EVS and evaluate an accomodation or restaurant based on reality, it's much more helpful in the long run.

Not that people shouldn't be enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is contagious and I think that generally it's a good thing. But it's also important to try to read between the lines of a review and to pose the questions, "Do I respond to this way of evaluating? What are important criteria to me and is this reviewer addressing those criteria?"

Ok. Gotta go. More later, perhaps.

David

David, I agree. That is why I prefer people to write long reviews with lots of details. Then you can see more of their personality. On person who I corresponded with from the web site (Cathy from MI who wrote Review 51was considering being a vacation rental agent at one time (but decided not to) and she put together a questionnaire so she could figure out what people want in a place.

We all want different things. Many people really enjoy the company of other travelers when they stay at estates (Cathy from MI is like this) whereas others want privacy (Tracy from NC was hoping the other apartment on the farm where she just stayed would be empty so they would not feel they have to socialize). We are also like Tracy - I love meeting people when we travel - if I hear an American in a caffe, I will go over and talk to them, but we prefer to stay in a house with privacy or in an apartment on an estate with a private outdoor area. If you really want privacy, stay on an estate that caters to Germans (Argiano was like this) - it is just perfect. Everyone is friendly and cheerful but we do not share a common language so everyone keeps to themselves.

That is why I ask so many questions for a review. I should go over my How to Write a Review page and make sure it really asks the right questions. I was thinking of making it a form you fill in, but I really like the essay style reviews that I have been receiving. These other Slow Travelers are such wonderful writers.

Any suggestions for changes to the how to write a review section??