I've bookmarked this site for pronunciation questions. There has been the complaint that they say things too fast; since I last looked, they've added the Effect menu, where you can select Speed or Duration to slow it down.
That is a goldmine of a site! I've just started taking lessons here at the Istituto Italiano and we're having a bit of a hard time with the pronounciation of the double consonants! The professoressa keeps telling us "make a short pause in the middle!" but it's kind of hard to do it without appearing slightly deranged
I can't count how many times my correct pronunciation of Bruschetta - see venexiananan's and Charnee's transcription - was corrected by helpful morons. What does one do? - scream? - slug? - waterboard?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew: I've bookmarked this site for pronunciation questions. [QUOTE]
Andrew, have you used that site much? At one point it cut me off saying that I had used up my free trial. I don't use it enough to want to subscribe - but when I needed it I found it very useful.
That sounds awful doesn't it - I like the site, I use the site, I don't want to pay for the site.
Originally posted by Americana in Parigi: I can't count how many times my correct pronunciation of Bruschetta - see venexiananan's and Charnee's transcription - was corrected by helpful morons. What does one do? - scream? - slug? - waterboard?
What absolutely irritates me is when a waitress says "Eye - talian" dressing! Being the irritating person that I am, I always correct them......which, of course, they never appreciate.
Perhaps I should tip based on correct pronunciation????
Louise
Posts: 264 | Location: Menasha, WI - USA | Registered: 15 February 2003
Andrew, have you used that site much? At one point it cut me off saying that I had used up my free trial. I don't use it enough to want to subscribe - but when I needed it I found it very useful.
No, Sheena, I haven't used it that much; I wasn't aware that it did this.
That is a goldmine of a site! I've just started taking lessons here at the Istituto Italiano and we're having a bit of a hard time with the pronounciation of the double consonants! The professoressa keeps telling us "make a short pause in the middle!" but it's kind of hard to do it without appearing slightly deranged
Bugsy
Bugsy An alternative "mindset" that might help the double consonant problem:
Try pronouncing the letter both "on the way in" and "on the way out"
e.g. Mazzotti becomes Matz-tzot-tee
It's not a big thing and perhaps more important in specific instances such as Casa vs. Cassa. Learning the difference between similar words with/without the double consonant may help.
regards
Ian
Drink coffee, do stupid things faster
Posts: 306 | Location: UK | Registered: 20 September 2008
I'd be careful about transliterating the Italian "u" as "ew" in English. It's a pure vowel - better represented, IMO, by "oo." Actually, plain "u" is just as good, perhaps even better. Thus:
Bugsy An alternative "mindset" that might help the double consonant problem:
Try pronouncing the letter both "on the way in" and "on the way out"
e.g. Mazzotti becomes Matz-tzot-tee
Pronouncing double consonants is just something you have to get the hang of. On many of them, you literally stop while holding the consonant and then continue: letto. On others, you prolong the consonant sound while continuing to phonate: evviva.
The problem with the first double (zz) in Ian's example is that, that particular transliteration appears to sound tz twice. That is incorrect - you need to articulate it up to the "t" part, hold your tongue and mouth in the "t" and then come out of it into "ts". Same thing for the double t, although when you resume, you're in a t (not a ts). Hope this helps.
Did I tell you guys that I'm teaching Italian Diction this semester?
I assure you that here in Arkansas we pronounce brew, broo, and bru in exactly the same way! Smile
That is why slowtalk is not a suitable place for inquiries of pronunciation. In order for the explanation of pronunciation to make sense, everyone has to be from the same dialect-region.
Steve Cohen (Pauline's husband) and I worked pretty hard to come up with a transliteration system that represented sounds accurately, particularly for beginning students, when we set up the French and Italian Language Lessons on the main SlowTrav website. In addition, Steve hooked up an automated voice software that would actually pronounce the terms in the lessons. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to use that software recently. Acknowledging that it's very difficult to standardize as well as really communicate pronunciation just by transliteration, I felt that the combination of those two methods went a long way towards getting there.
When transliterating terms in French, Italian,, or Spanish for Slow Travel posters who ask questions on these forums, I always try to stick to that transliteration system. Anyone can have a look at it by viewing any of the language pages, like this one, for example.
We had to make a number of decisions that, frankly, are debatable -- I often question some of them myself -- but it is a system. If we were able to have the software producing sounds like we used to, that would certainly be helpful as well. In the meantime, the other websites that people have spoken about here that offer examples of native speakers pronouncing the languages can be very helpful. not to mention Pimsleur etc tapes and CDs.
Actually, the best way to transliterate would be be to use the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA), but people would have to learn it... It's the educational standard when teaching any kind of diction.
I try to look at this topic realistically -- I understand that regional differences in English (not to mention Italian or French, etc) pronunciation do present problems when reading transliterations. So for the odd, isolated question regarding pronunciation, yes, it can be very difficult to truly communicate the sounds merely by transliterating. But there are degrees to everything and, I believe, that some help can be offered here for those with pronunciation questions, particularly if they understand about those regional variations as well as importance of using aural learning tools. And if people had a better understanding of a particular transliteration system like the one we use on the regular website, that would also be helpful.
So I would not discourage people from asking pronunciation questions here. Rather I would just acknowledge that any answer they receive would not really be sufficient to understand the pronunciation -- it would be necessary to hear it as well.
write the word in the input field after "Scrivi:" [=write]
click on "cerca" [=Search]
If the word is in their (still incomplete ) database, below the searching utility you'll see the word you looked for: click on it : a pop-up window will open (make sure your browser is not blocking pop up windows for that website)
In the new window click on the little round button with the arrow/triangle inside : listen
Words must be written in their singular form and if it is an adjective in its masculine form (it will find buono but not buona or buoni or buone for example)
The word I always find I must correct in American Italian restaurants is Tagliarini. They always say Tag, which drives me nuts. It's the gl sound we don't get.
Anyway, when we order Tagliarini the correct way, they look at us like we are crazy.
Sharon J
Posts: 1141 | Location: Houston, TX USA | Registered: 01 November 2003
David --- is it like in some Semitic languages (eg, Hebrew) where what you are really doing is putting a very short vowel (a shewa) between the first and second occurrences of the consonant? Or do you just hold the consonant longer?
It's basically the second one, Marian, with some variants. If you're pronouncing a double l, you're correct - you actually continue sounding the l sound for longer duration. This is difficult for some English speakers to get used to. With other doubles, you actually stop on the first part of the consonant. Ex: If you're saying "mezzo", the voiced version of zz, you basically stop on the "d" which is the first part of the sound, and then complete it with the dz part. If you're pronouncing "vezzose", in which the zz sound is unvoiced, you stop on the "t" and then proceed to complete the ts sound.
But you definitely do not add a schwa or any other vowel sound.
My way of remembering a double consonant sound is to think of the difference between "doggone" and "doggie" as I normally pronounce them. At least for g, l, m, n (not s and z). This is not something any Italian instructor ever recommended to me, but it might be useful to Americans who hope to avoid penne/pene confusion.
Posts: 243 | Location: Washington DC | Registered: 11 January 2006
I think it will make life a lot easier if the vowel which precedes the doubled consonant is pronounced in its short version (when there is one). So e' rather than e for example.
The correct emphasis is on the second syllable as you suspected: TrasTEvere This preserves the stressed syllable in the name of the river which is pronounced 'il TEvere'
I think it will make life a lot easier if the vowel which precedes the doubled consonant is pronounced in its short version
The texts I use to teach Italian Diction both talk about short and long vowels (and consonants) in terms of duration and their relationship to each other - now this is only for accented syllables. Short vowels are invariably followed by two consonants (sometimes a double); long vowels are followed by a single consonant which must be pronounced quickly. Thus, in the above example, Trastevere, the e on the accented syllable is extended, is long, as it is followed by a single consonant. And that consonant, the v, is short. In the word farfalla, the accented a on the second syllable is short, since it is followed by a longer, by comparison, consonant structure, the double l.
I did a little more research, and, technically, what I said above is not quite accurate. Vowels are sometimes "long" when followed by two consonants. The determining factor is if the vowel ends the syllable. Example: lagrima is "syllabified" la-gri-ma, thus the first a is long, even though it is followed by two consonants.
IMO, these "rules" that are used for teaching purposes are generally good, but can be confusing. If one is a native Italian speaker, the patterns come naturally. I also think that that ability can be cultivated by non-native speakers by just having enough exposure to the spoken language. Again, I suppose, this supports the case for more oral study!
David Thanks for all your very useful clarifications. Just wanted to make it clear that when I said in my post - "doubled consonant" - I meant 2 consecutive consonants which are the same consonant, not just any two consecutive consonants.
The determining factor is if the vowel ends the syllable.
How do you know whether a vowel ends the syllable or not? Perhaps you need to know whether the vowel is long or short in order to tell whether it ends the syllable so that you can decide whether it's long or short!
I think the i in pizza is long (it's pronounced more like peedtsa than pidtsa), so does this mean that the zz is the start of the next syllable?
Posts: 962 | Location: West Sussex, England | Registered: 08 February 2007
I think there's a possible confusion here between long/short and open/closed vowel sounds. As I understand it, the long/short distinction (eg lagrima/farfalle) affects the length, but not the sound of the vowel. And Italian a, i, and u vowels only have one sound - so isola has a longer i than pizza, musica a longer u than muffa. But the sound, the mouth position, is essentially the same. So the English short i (as in your 'pidtsa') just isn't an available sound in Italian.
The other two vowels, e & o, have both open and closed pronunciations. Since David (and others) know far more about this than I do, I'll leave it to them to chip in.
Jonathan
Posts: 3394 | Location: Stroud, UK | Registered: 18 November 2001
Originally posted by WSB: I think the i in pizza is long (it's pronounced more like peedtsa than pidtsa), so does this mean that the zz is the start of the next syllable?
In Italian "i" is always pronounced as "ee", as venexiananan wrote above (
I think there's a possible confusion here between long/short and open/closed vowel sounds. As I understand it, the long/short distinction (eg lagrima/farfalle) affects the length, but not the sound of the vowel.
Thanks for clarifying, Jonathan. That's exactly the sense in which I meant it.
Does the fact that lagrima has a long initial a go along with the fact that the emphasis is on the first syllable? How does one know (unless one has heard "una furtiva lagrima" sung) that it is la-gri-ma with the emphasis on the la rather than, say, lag-ri-ma with the emphasis on the ri?
Posts: 962 | Location: West Sussex, England | Registered: 08 February 2007
WSB, I just wrote a VERY long explanation, answering some of your questions. And then I lost it. Sorry I don't have time to do that again at length.
In short - re: accented syllables in Italian, we know that they tend to be accented on the penultimate syllable. We also know that there are many, many exceptions.. Lagrima (lacrima) is one such exception. There might be some patterns to some of these exceptions, but there really isn't a rule that covers it. One really just needs a good dictionary to consult if you're not sure.
The rest of my post that got lost was about how syllables breakdown in Italian.
If you have access to a library, you might check David Adams's A Handbook of Diction for Singers or Evelina Colorni's Singer's Italian, both excellent texts. Or I could try to repost the information when I get a chance. Hope this helps.
And Paolo, thanks for that - I do think that the rendering of long and short vowels in accented syllables is reflected in how the language is inflected as well as the cadence of the language.
Thanks very much for your explanations, everyone. I'm sorry you lost your extended explanation, David. However, I think you've already given us plenty to think about.
Posts: 962 | Location: West Sussex, England | Registered: 08 February 2007
How is Euro pronounced? As a northeastern American, I say it yor-O. How will the Roman business proprietors say it when telling me how much something costs? Is the plural Euros or Euri?
Posts: 407 | Location: New Jersey, USA | Registered: 16 September 2007
I think the o and u could be misconstrued here. I would render them as OH and OO respectively.
Thanks, Andrew. Good correction.
Re the E in Euro being dominant in that diphthong, I have the same issue with my students pronouncing "Euridice." The tendency is to go directly to the u, almost mimicking the English pronounciation. Incorrect - the E needs, if not an accent, then at least equal time!
I think the o and u could be misconstrued here. I would render them as OH and OO respectively.
In fact, good catch; typing too quickly...
All this would be so much easier with audio. Writing complicated explanations for sounds are always tricky. I think Rosetta Stone does a good job of combining visual, written, and sound.
I do agree, however, that good pronunciation is key. You can ask a question simply by pronouncing a word correctly and adding the appropriate inflection, for example, as opposed to trying to remember longer, more difficult sentence that means nothing to you.
That, and making sure to always say Buongiorno and "grazie, arrivederci" anytime you enter or leave a store or restaurant is really all you need.
When the euro was introduced we were told to say it ay-OO-roh, but at least one famous Italian says AYR-oh, which grates on me like nails on a chalkboard. Thank God there is no plural.
