In another discussion thread about Buon Ricordo Restaurants, Dean advised Colleen against taking (vegetarian) Pauline and Steve to Checchino in Rome, based on the fact that its menu leaned heavily towards meat.

This came as a surprise to me. My only experience of Italian cuisine is Italian-inspired food that I've eaten outside of Italy. As I said in the other thread, I find Italian cuisine to be one of the most vegetarian-friendly options available to me.

Another factor that has helped me, as a vegetarian, is the fact that, even if a menu has no vegetarian offerings on it, I have only to mention to the waiter that I'm a vegetarian, and he/she will produce a lovely vegetarian dish. It seems that, although I live right in the heart of beef country, every chef in town has a couple of vegetarian dishes up his/her sleeve just in case a vegetarian should patronise his/her restaurant. This is particularly true of upscale restaurants, but is also true of many medium-priced ones.

Frankly I don't spend much effort researching vegetarian dining options in Calgary, because I've come to take it for granted that any nice restaurant in town will accommodate a request for a vegetarian meal if there aren't vegetarian choices on the menu.

Rightly or wrongly, I had assumed it would be equally easy order vegetarian meals in restaurants in Italy. I thought I lived in just about the most beef-oriented place in the world, so I couldn't imagine that other chefs would be less accommodating than those in Calgary.

I'd appreciate it if anyone would like to share an opinion of how easy or difficult it is to find vegetarian options at restaurants in Italy.

Perhaps I should qualify this by saying that, as a vegetarian, I'm used to having only a couple of vegetarian choices in a restaurant that caters to omnivores. So it wouldn't bother me if I was confined to a limited selection, provided I didn't have to go hungry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kim,

Judy,
We've actually had a few discussions on this topic. Embedded in THIS thread are links to some of them.

I would say that there are few restaurants in Italy I have been to where a vegetarian would not have a number of choices. But I would ahte to pass up a place like Checco in Roma for a place like Checchino or Rosetta where they would be hard pressed to put together a full meal with good options. One possibility is that if you let Checchino know in advance they might be able to offer a few other options not on the menu.

Wine Notes*Tuscan Restaurant List* Wine, Opera & Food* Trip

words of wisdom to live by from Stephen Sondheim's The Frogs
{The chorus is singing a prayer to Dionysus...}
Dionysius "A hymm to me, the god of wine..."
Xanthius (His slave) "I thought you were the god of drama?"
Dionysius "I am the god of wine and the god of drama. A little wine will get you thru a lot of drama"

Thanks for the info, Colleen and Dean. Well, Colleen, it looks as if you have an ample excuse (if you need one ) to go to both Checco and Checchino. I hope you'll find both of them wonderful.

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Originally posted by Judy in Calgary:
This came as a surprise to me. My only experience of Italian cuisine is Italian-inspired food that I've eaten outside of Italy. As I said in the other thread, I find Italian cuisine to be one of the most vegetarian-friendly options available to me.

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A first thought about this is that no "exotic" (and with this I mean from outside the country where you are eating) cuisine is really what tpeople eat at home in the country that inspires the restaurant. When I go to a Japanese or to an Indian restaurant I do not really expect to eat the same way I would eat if I were in India. In each country food is adapted to meet the tastes of the locals. This is true for the cheap(ish) restaurants and, in a sense, it is also true for the upscale ones, where you eat the "haute cuisine" of the country but not really the day by day food. Since in Italy vegetarians are less than in other countries, it is but a logical consequence that in these foreign countries the vegetarian options are more easily available than in Italy.
Another thought is that there is not really and "italian cuisine", As a matter of facts, Italy has been a nation for less than 200 yeras and still retains huge regional differences. Until 60 yeras ago people still didn't even speak Italian at home, speaking only their dialects, and two people from different areas of Italy who speak each in his own dialect do not understand each other a bit. To me it is nealry impossibile to understand, for instance, the Sicilian or the neapolitan dialect. I can undertsand most of what is said in Venetian dialect but not all (say a bit more than I understand Romanian, but not by much, despite the fact Milano is but a few hundred kilometers from Venice, and I do not undersand a single word of Genovese, except a few insults. The same range of differences can be found in foods. italy does not have a national cuisine, it has several regional cuisines, each with its own dishes. In later centuries some foods have become common in the whole Italy, for istance pasta. Yet, my grandmom remembers clearly that as a child (say 70 years ago) the pasta as it is commonly known was a festive and somewhat exotic dish in Emilia Romagna. Even now the blending of the recipes regards but a minority of foods, while most foods are still extremely local. Tuscany and Emilia Romagna share a long regional border, but Necci are unknown in Emilia and Tigelle re unknown in Tuscany, and both these are dishes that are traditional of the border between the two regions. Even within a single region there are huge differences in dialects, traditions and foods. In Lombardy, it is hard to find Formaj de müt in Mantova and it is hard to find Tordé ad succa in Bergamo. So you can't really talk about italian cuisine when you are talking about Italian restaurants, you should rathr talk about local cuisines, which can vary hugely. Yet, most of the local foods are nealry unknow brouad, even though they are a common food in their areas.
Therefore, as a consequence, there are areas of italy where it is far easier to fix a vegetarian meal, and areas where it can be quite difficult. In Tuscany, where food is primarly meat based it will be harder (not impossibile but harder), while in Liguria, where the grees are extremely important in the local cuisine it will be easier.

Alice Twain
--
I don’t want to take what you can’t give / I would rather starve than eat your bread
I would rather run but I can’t walk / Guess I’ll lie alone just like before
                Pearl Jam, Corduroy

My husband is a vegetarian, and had absolutely no problem in Tuscany, Como, and Modena. He always found a pasta dish and numerous vegetable sides and salads which made him very happy! Elizabeth

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Originally posted by Elizabeth:
My husband is a vegetarian, and had absolutely no problem in Tuscany, Como, and Modena. He always found a pasta dish and numerous vegetable sides and salads which made him very happy!

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With pasta, always make sure to ask if there was no pancetta, salsiccia or prosciutto: there are not usually perceived as meat by the average Italian.

Alice Twain
--
I don’t want to take what you can’t give / I would rather starve than eat your bread
I would rather run but I can’t walk / Guess I’ll lie alone just like before
                Pearl Jam, Corduroy

Another warning on vegetarian dishes... In the Cucina Povera tradition, it is not uncommon to cook a tomato sauce with meat bones in it to "richen" the flavor. The bones are then served as a separate meat course. So if you see "rich tomato sauce" on the menu, you should not be 100% certain it has not been cooked with meat. Also, prosciutto bone or skin can wind up in a soup or beans for flavor and the final dish will not have a speck of meat in it.

Finally, when I was travelling with my boss in Modena, he was a 30+ year vegetarian. I was in charge of making sure he didn't get meat in his dishes. At one restaurant, they had Scamorza alla Griglia on the menu. I explained to him that this was grilled cheese. I told the owner/waiter that "he was vegetariano" and that "no mangia carne. Niente!"

She replied that the scamorza was fine. When he got it there were two pieces of the cheese on the platter. He tore into the first and finished it off in a few bites. I realized if I wanted a taste I had to move quickly so I took a bite of the second piece. It had a clearly dark pink/reddish brown stripe int he middle, that could have only been prosciutto.

I flagged the waiter and said "Prosciutto?"

Her answer was "Si!"

I said, pointing to my boss, "Vegetariano! No mangia carne!"

She pointed to the cheese and said "Solo un poco!" "Only a little!" As if that made it okay!!!

Wine Notes*Tuscan Restaurant List* Wine, Opera & Food* Trip

words of wisdom to live by from Stephen Sondheim's The Frogs
{The chorus is singing a prayer to Dionysus...}
Dionysius "A hymm to me, the god of wine..."
Xanthius (His slave) "I thought you were the god of drama?"
Dionysius "I am the god of wine and the god of drama. A little wine will get you thru a lot of drama"

[This message was edited by dean on 23 December 2003 at 09:30 AM.]

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Originally posted by dean:
She pointed to the cheese and said "Solo un poco!" "Only a little!" As if that made it okay!!!

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Just to make the vegetarians out there make feel a bit better (hemmm), the same can happen with other ingredients too. I have an unpleasant problem with parmigiano reggiano and other extremely aged cheeses (over 1 year), that can cause me a bad stomachache. One night I was having quick dinner at a pizzeria with a friend. I asked for "gnocchi alla vesuviana", wich are usually gnocchi with tomato sauce, mozzarella and grated parmigiano, placed in the hot oven for a few miniutes to melt the cheeses and served in a hot clay bowl. I asked specifically (in Italian and making it extremely clear that I cannot have any parmigiano or I get sick) that I wanted them with aboslutely no parmigiano. The waiter said "No problem", but the gnocchi arrived with parmigiano. I refused them after the first bite, and asked them to be replaced with another serving with no parmigiano, the waiter said "The cook used only half the amount he usually puts in the dish".
One year later, at the same pizzeria with another friend. She is allergic to mushrooms, so she asked a pizza with prosciutto. She was served a pizza with prosciutto and mushrooms. She refused it explaining that she is allergic, and asked for another pizza. The waiter answered "I can take them off", she explained again that she risked getting extremely sick and having to go to the ER even if a drop of juice from the mushrooms was still in the disk, so he said "I'll replace it"... Sure, he erplaced it with a mushroom pizza. We asked it to be replaced once again, he did, with extreme lack of grace. It was the last time I went there.

On the other hand, my grandmom did the same a couple of months ago, boiling a parmigiano "scorza" (the outer layer of the cheese that can't be grated) in the minestrone, than serving it to me. When I took the first taste, I suddely felt the taste of the cheese, but she kept denying it until my mom gave her a WICKED look , than my grandmom explained "it was such a small piece"...

Alice Twain
--
I don’t want to take what you can’t give / I would rather starve than eat your bread
I would rather run but I can’t walk / Guess I’ll lie alone just like before
                Pearl Jam, Corduroy

I rarely eat meat (maybe once a week, sometimes less - and never beef) and can only eat certain seafood as I get very sick to my stomach when i eat scallops and shrimp. Have really had no problem eatting in the north or south of italy.

And I am highly allergic to onions. But I always manage to get around it. Asking politely and explaining my allergy seems to go a long way. Although I did have one really bad incident in a restaurant in florence where I thought I would have to go to the hospital. But it was my fault. Forgot to tell them about my allergy and then tried to pick out the very fresh onions. Learned my lesson the hard way. And managed to get my friend very nervous in the process!

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Originally posted by Judy in Calgary:
...I have only to mention to the waiter that I'm a vegetarian, and he/she will produce a lovely vegetarian dish...

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Yeah, spaghetti with pomodoro - that is frequently the only offering. Admittedly food in restaurants in Italy is better for vegetarians than any other European country (with the exception of England and Switzerland), but this is no vegetarian paradise. Italians are meat eaters and the menus reflect that. If you eat cheese (I don't eat that much of it), you can get by easier.

Regionally, I have found Tuscany to be the best for vegetarian selections. Seaside towns are the worst - frequently all courses are based on fish. In Levanto I ate pasta with pesto every meal we went out, while Steve ate many different fish dishes. In Umbria the first couple of meals with pasta and truffles are great, but then you get tired of that. In the Amalfi area I found the vegetarian selections very cheesey and rich. Even the pizza was very cheesey. In Rome we usually do pretty well - but get just a simple pasta and a contorni.

I just got back from Volpettis which I criticized to Dean who recommended it as being all meat - there were several vegetable dishes. Tonight we got potatoes, zuchini, onions, and bietolle. (sp?) We went to a Chinese restaurant for lunch - and the white rice was bad!! That was a shock! It was cold and clumpy and overcooked.

Switzerland has a vegetarian tradition, so there is always a cooked vegetable plate (gemuseteller) on the menu. England has a real understanding of vegetarians - I think there must be a lot in that country.

"Being vegetarian, you don't live longer, it just seems longer."
www.themeatrix.com
(Stephanie sent me this link)

Pauline from Slow Travelers

Thanks for the warnings about the subtleties of ordering vegetarian meals in Italy. And here I thought Calgary was a beef obssessed place. From now on I'll give local chefs more credit than I did before. At least they understand the meaning of vegetarian.

It sounds as if it may be difficult to get my point across about my vegetarian requirements in Italy, all the more so because I'll be coping with phrase book Italian.

The good news, I suppose, is that I'm a vegetarian on principle, not because I have allergies. If worst comes to worst, and the soup stock contains chicken (or whatever) that I don't know about, it won't be the end of the world.

People who have serious allergies have a much greater challenge. Occasionally one hears a story of a person who can't survive even a bite of the wrong nut or whatever it is they're allergic to.

As essentially a vegetarian when dining out (I eat most fish but not "frutta di mare") I had an experience similar to the one Dean describes:

While on a walking tour of Tuscany a few years ago, I had many delicious and imaginative vegetarian meals at small family restaurants. But at a particularly wonderful lunch at an agriturismo near San Gimignano, the soup was a great-looking ribollita. Assured that it was vegetarian, I started to eat it but then saw the chunk of ham floating in it that had been added "for flavor". The host was mortified that I, of all people, had been given the serving with the ham. I finally got him to understand that just having been cooked with the ham in it made the soup non-vegetarian. So I try to be very specific (and tend to avoid soups in Italy!).
Marian

Im not a vegetarian but have dined frenquently with such folk and have often heard the waiter say - si si - there is no meat nothing - its just a tomato sauce, sure it has some pancetta but no meat " hellloooo??
its quite amusing really ( unless you are a vegetarian)

On this topic:

Last time I was in Florence, I thought I might eat at Trattoria Cibreo (the restaurant is too expensive). But when I went and asked the fellow in charge, he said they hadnothing vegetarian on the menu, or available. Is this really true? Would love to try their food next spring, if possible. Someone on this board should know. Maybe Diva?

Marian

A couple of years ago one of the men in our traveling group was on a macrobiotic diet, and he was given special treatment in order that he could strictly stay on this diet at every restaurant we went to, including Cibreo on Florence. In fact, he had a "kit bag" to carry around his macrobiotic food which he asked each of the restaurants we went to prepare for him. That is if the restaurant didn't have intregrale pasta etc. In every single case the restaurants were kind enough to accommodate him. We had several meals at La Chiusa in Montefollonico where it prepared meals in accordance with his macrobiotic diet. As I recall, however, that diet is not strictly vegetarian as he could have very moderate amounts of simply prepared certain seafood a couple of times a week.

Peter

At Cibreo, you could start with their tomato aspic primi, and have a salad or a few contorni after. The menu is heavy on meat (no pasta) but I am sure they would make a plate up of different vegetable contorni.

Shannon
www.chowbellabooks.com

Marian, this doesn't answer your question about Trattoria Cibreo. However, I decided to do a search for vegetarian restaurants in Italy. Then I had the brain wave of searching for kosher restaurants in Italy. It occurred to me that a kosher restaurant would protect one, to some extent, from the scenario Kel described:

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have often heard the waiter say - si si - there is no meat nothing - its just a tomato sauce, sure it has some pancetta but no meat " hellloooo??

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It turns out that Florence has miniscule selections of vegetarian and kosher restaurants, Rome and Milan have larger selections, and Venice has selections somewhere between Rome's and Florence's. I suppose this reflects the sizes of the cities.

Anyway, a search for KOSHER RESTAURANTS + FIRENZE yielded a link to Vegetarian Restaurants in Florence which, in turn, had links to four vegetarian restaurants plus four restaurants that were not vegetarian but that did serve vegetarian entrees. But of course I have no independent verification of how good or bad the restaurants are.

I will eagerly read any restaurant reviews you submit on your return from Florence.

Cibreo has many non meat items.. the tomato aspic which is incredible.. polenta with herbs and cheese, someitmes yellow bell pepper soup or pumpkin soup ( although if chicken broth is a problem then perhaps not the soups either)
they have an incredible egg plant parmesan, that is the owners pride and joy... and many vegetables,potatoes in tomatoe sauce, almost always.. sometimes the twice cooked cauliflower has sausage so not that.. tuscan beans...and a mixed vegetable with beets that is great too!

There are several vegetarian places, I worked at CEntro vegetariano on via delle ruote, Gaugin ( if it is still there) is a famcier one, Sedano Allegro is around the corner from Cibreo.
There is a new place by the stadium, called Corte Harmonica, that is rather trendy!

Cooking in Florence
www.divinacucina.com

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Originally posted by Pauline:
Regionally, I have found Tuscany to be the best for vegetarian selections.

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probably we have different experiences about this. I always find it hard to to actually stuff myself with meat in Tuscany. now, I do eat meat, but not that much! One or two meals with meat per week are plenty enough to satisfy me. In Tuscany it's often one or two meals with meat per day. And what's worse: lots of white meat, which is said to be healtier, but I do not like it all! Give me one juicy horse steak every week and I will be happy for the rest of my life.
Probably, the difference between your experience derives from the fact that, while in Tuscany, you eat at restaurants or cook your own meals but I eat at home what my mother in law cooks and only occasionally in restaurants.

Alice Twain
--
I don’t want to take what you can’t give / I would rather starve than eat your bread
I would rather run but I can’t walk / Guess I’ll lie alone just like before
                Pearl Jam, Corduroy

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Originally posted by Judy in Calgary:
It occurred to me that a kosher restaurant would protect one, to some extent, from the scenario Kel described: [...]

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Not exactly. Italian kosher food uses goose the same way that non jews use pork. Than, in any Italian Kosher restaurants the scene might be the same, the only difference would be that instead of pancetta you may find pieces of goose fat in your food. ^___^

Alice Twain
--
I don’t want to take what you can’t give / I would rather starve than eat your bread
I would rather run but I can’t walk / Guess I’ll lie alone just like before
                Pearl Jam, Corduroy

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Originally posted by Alice Twain:

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Originally posted by Judy in Calgary:
It occurred to me that a kosher restaurant would protect one, to some extent, from the scenario Kel described: [...]

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Not exactly. Italian kosher food uses goose the same way that non jews use pork. Than, in any Italian Kosher restaurants the scene might be the same, the only difference would be that instead of pancetta you may find pieces of goose fat in your food. ^___^

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Dear Judy, Alice, et al:
Thank you all for your interest in my question re Cibreo and vegetarian. Judy in Calgary is correct in that dining at a kosher restaurant would take care of the problem, as a kosher restaurant that is not a "meat" restaurant would not have any meat products of any kind. That is, if they served cheese, etc no meat could be possible. I have in fact eaten in Ruth's, which is the kosher (dair