Slow Travel has a proven track record of attracting large numbers of serious travelers to Italy, not to mention advertisers who rely on people like us for business. Perhaps this web site could use its influence, leverage and contacts to help solve at least one aspect of the the problem of traffic violations, which is obviously growing as the use of cameras increases throughout Italy.

When we travel, we agree to obey local laws. No argument there. But it does seem to me that Italy's towns and villages (and the car rental companies themselves) have at least some responsibility to provide us "perpetrators" with a clearly communicated and reasonable method of payment.

My rental company charged me 30 euros to send me a barely legible photocopy of my ticket, making it very difficult to do "the right thing" -- i.e., pay it in a way that made me comfortable that I was doing it correctly, and in a way that would get my hundreds of dollars to the right place -- and in a way that I could prove that the money had been sent if a problem developed in the future. (Call me paranoid.)

Can Slow Travel please use its leverage to help solve this problem? I think it has the potential to threaten the "good will" that exists between Italy and some of its very best friends! For example, why can't rental companies be persuaded to give renters an optional box to check on our rental forms that authorize THEM to pay a fine we incur, using OUR credit card. They have no problem hitting our credit cards to charge for the service of forwarding the ticket to us! If there are mitigating circumstances, couldn't the ticket still be contested after payment of the fine? (I would willingly pay them 30 euros for THAT service.) In most cases, we accept our "guilt" -- especially where cameras are involved -- but having to jump through hoops to pay an already exorbitant fine is like pouring salt in the wound.

How about it, Slow Travel?

So, let me try to understand this.

You are (OK, I'll call you) paranoid about being able to prove that you actually paid your fine in case, what, someone came after you down some road. But, you're not paranoid about giving up to a rental-car company your power to plead guilty or not guilty? Jeez.

The world is large. Complex. Distances not leapt easily. Languages not fathomed. Cultural mayhem misunderstood. These are a few of my favorite things ....la, la, la.

In other words, traveling to foreign lands has its traumas. You sound frustrated, and I can understand. Got a ticket myself in said foreign land. But, man come on, we can't control -- or expect others to control -- every ounce of adventure.

Pay the fine. Be fine. It's the way of an adventurous world. What, should Slow Travel use its weight to fix Alitalia too? The value of the Euro? The bad panna cotta I got in Bologna that one day ...

Deep breaths. Be well.

yes, slow travel please fix the euro it should be officially 1.20 dollars from now on.

I would also agree to let the rental company
pay tickets. sign me up RR

Isn't the larger issue this: Why are so many normally law-abiding people getting tickets in Italy? I think that a good percentage of the tickets are misunderstandings of the local laws about limited traffic zones and parking rules.

We might instead try to focus our energy on those people who think they are going to drive in Italy without knowing what the traffic signs mean. It seems crazy to me that you can pick up a car without knowing the rules of roundabouts, limited traffic zones, etc.

Obviously a percentage of the tickets are based on the kinds of mistakes we make at home -- speeding, expired parking meters -- but doesn't it seem like a lot of people have no idea why they are getting these tickets?

OK, and now back to the issue at hand -- I'd rather make the decision myself to pay the fine and not authorize the car rental company to do so. However, I agree that the rental company shouldn't be tacking on their own surcharge for the "service" of letting you know you have a ticket. If anything, that fee should be charged to the local Italian govt agency that is looking for you! The rental company is, in this case, helping them out.

And yes, fixing the exchange rate would be excellent. Let's work on that one next.

quote:

The world is large. Complex. Distances not leapt easily. Languages not fathomed. Cultural mayhem misunderstood. These are a few of my favorite things ....la, la, la.

In other words, traveling to foreign lands has its traumas.

I've had 40 years of wonderful experiences in Italy, and great adventures without trauma and mayhem. I'm comfortable with the Italian language in most situations, and I know the world is big and complex. Your post is a cute and entertaining mixture of humor, condescension and sarcasm.

The first time I read it, I thought you just didn't like the idea. That's O.K., I get them all the time. Some are better than that one, some worse. Upon re-reading, I realized that what you were really putting down was the whole idea of looking for ways to make things work a little better, the very notion of constructive engagement. For me, that's what travel is all about. Especially SLOW travel. And what's wrong with a travel web site using its contacts and credibility to suggest ways that might make the travel experience a little better?

You're right, an obstacle to paying (or collecting on) a $250 or $500 or $1,200 traffic violation isn't as weighty or complex as an out-of-kilter international exchange rate. It's a lot easier to solve. I see what's happening with increasing frequency as an unnecessary glitch in a necessary process -- one that could work a lot better for everyone involved with a minor tweak somewhere. Such an improvement might just be triggered by sharing ideas. I hope those with better ones than mine won't be discouraged by your reaction to it.

Joseph, I felt that the reactions you received were a bit harsh and, actually, thought your post was quite thoughtful. I do think it's a worthwile discussion and doesn't deserve some of the responses. I don't think people are trying to get out of paying something they did wrong, but I do find it a bit confusing when you are driving into a city such as Rome, trying to either find a hotel or rental car return lot and passing through areas where we are not supposed to be. I have read all the rules, asked questions on this board and even printed pictures of road signs from this board that warn of different situations and it is still overwhelming. Yes, it is our responsiblity and I didn't get the feeling that Joseph was trying to duck that responsibility, but there is a point when you begin to feel that you are being taken advantage of, without any way to fight the system.

Sharon J

Fair enough. Sorry. I get that way, and I am sorry I was so snippy. I guess I just didn't understand the idea.

My apologies. In fact, I'll edit it! Wait, I can't. Hmmm, how to eat one's words. Let me leave it at "I'm sorry."

Ciao

I found this discussion very interesting, and would like to extend it if I may to the role played by car rental companies generally. I don't know whether the experiences of US travellers to Italy are any better than those of us in the UK, but there has been for some time now an increasing body of pressure building up to introduce an element of regulation to this industry. A couple of years ago The Sunday Times newspaper here ran a series of articles on the various scams, sharp practices and problems relating to car hire abroad. Readers wrote in in droves with their horror stories. Italy featured largely!

So in a nutshell Joseph: yes I would support a serious-minded community like Slow Travel attmepting to exert some influence in these matters. Thank you for raising it as an issue.

On a related topic, the rental car companies could certainly make it easier to be aware of the rules of the road by providing said information when you rent the car!

A little brochure with general rules, traffic signs, etc. would be very useful. But then, the SlowTravel's articles would be less used if the rental companies provided the info....

Susan

Avis does provide a little package. But jet lagged or cruising down the autostrada isn't exactly the best time to be checking out the thing. I doubt many drivers even notice the Avis document lists speed limits and I think has signs to.

quote:

And what's wrong with a travel web site using its contacts and credibility to suggest ways that might make the travel experience a little better?

I am just wondering if this would be possible in North America. I mean could a travel website, even the most important travel website, actually convince a government to change their rules? Could they?

Because if you have a trick to convince our government to make one single rule simpler, then I want to know the trick. I bet several of us would be interested.

Please do not believe that things are made complicated for foreign travellers. Rules are complicated in Italy for everybody and getting someone to change them is the most complicated task of all.

I think it's a great idea to have an option of allowing the credit card company to pay a traffic fine. Far better than charging $30 to send a bad photocopy. What I do not understand is why it takes so long for the ticket to get to you. My son was ticketed last year and it was 90 days after coming home.

quote:

We might instead try to focus our energy on those people who think they are going to drive in Italy without knowing what the traffic signs mean. It seems crazy to me that you can pick up a car without knowing the rules of roundabouts, limited traffic zones, etc.

Reminds me that I couldn't find this kind of information anywhere prior to my first trip to Italy. At least Slow Travel has fixed that problem.

---Marlene

[Note: Although it appears under Doru's name, this post represents the views of all Moderators. We will also add parts of this post to our FAQ forum under the title "About traffic and parking tickets in Italy".]

In this topic Slow Travel was requested by some members to take an active position with respect to the Italian Traffic and Parking regulations and their applications.

With apologies for its length, this is our reply:

We are tremendously honoured that members believe that Slow Travel, as a website, can have such impact on the legislation and administration of a country’s laws, but this is a burden we are not equipped for and we must disappoint our members if such were their expectations.

We are a website providing information from its members to its members and we also provide the forum for related discussions. In matters such as that of travellers and their relationship with the laws of the countries in which they travel, we try at the best of our ability to warn, to help preventing, but we cannot provide remedies when the local law or regulation comes in between a member and local authorities.

We are not an activist website, nor do we have the resources to engage in any kind of public movement.

We are as good as our members are. More precisely, our ambition is to be as good as our members are. If you wish, we are the Hyde Park and we provide the Speakers’ Corner. But the members are those who have to step up on those boxes and speak up.

We are just one voice.

The members are many.

In previous discussions on related topics we have suggested to our members that the best way in which to raise awareness to the matter of traffic and parking tickets and fines is to bring our individual concerns and demands to those Italian institutions which either are affected by the public discontent with the way justice is administered or to those which can best affect it.

The first would be the municipalities who issue and impose the various regulations and by-laws, the rental car companies which operate within those regions and car rentals brokers, not to speak of hotels or apartment owners, all bodies which have a vested interest in keeping travellers coming. The second would be bodies such as the Italian Tourist Boards, Italian Consulate Generals and the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And maybe to Italian newspapers.

For most of these, we provided the links.

Numerous letters or telephone calls or emails will sooner or later gather sufficient attention to have an impact. In the view of the Moderators of this website, this is what members can do, and should do.

Before starting to write these lines, we took an inventory of the topics in which traffic and parking tickets in Italy were the central motif. Here is the impressive list of previous discussions, which also includes how to contact Italian authorities who have a say in this subject or a need to know, in our opinion. The list is not in chronological order but covers these topics in the latter part of 2007 and so far in 2008:

FAQ: European Municipality Outsourcing-Parking and Traffic Tickets

Traffic Violation Question

POSTED: Traffic Cameras on Roadways and in Towns, by Jane

Driving in Florence

What to do about a traffic ticket?

Rental car or train into Florence & Venice

Florence Driving Difficulties

map for no drive zone in Rome

Another ticket nightmare

speeding ticket

Florence, new traffic patterns around Borgo Ognissanti

Poster to Slow Travel: "Help"

EUROPEAN MUNICIPALITY OUTSOURCING International notification infringement to the Italian Highway Code

Our own "Driving in Italy"

ENIT-The Italian Government Tourist Board which has in the middle of the home page a highlighted clickable warning "Limited traffic areas in Italy: Drivers be aware!!!" which then provides information on driving in Italy and what "Limited traffic areas (Zona Traffico Limitato)" or ZTL are. Finally, at the bottom of the rightmost column of the ENIT home page there are clickable links for ENIT North America and for ENIT World, which provide full contact information for the Italian Tourism Board offices, complete with names, telephone numbers, mailing addresses, and in some cases email addresses.

To close, here is what we wrote, again under my name, in one of the discussions quoted above, on 13 February 2008:

QUOTE I have a suggestion for us all, those who have been placed in the situation of receiving fines, admin fees, etc., as result of traffic and parking violations.

Let me be clear in that I do not believe for a moment that the Italian Government, Italian municipalities and other Italian bodies which are responsible for traffic and transportation have created the rules we keep talking about in this topic in order to persecute tourists or in order to fund their own financial difficulties off the backs of tourists.

Italy, like the entire world today, has a major problem with the exponentially increasing and limitless development of automotive traffic, regardless of who is at the steering wheel.

It seems to me the targets of these "draconian" rules are first and foremost the Italian drivers.

We, travellers to Italy, are a "side effect" or collateral persons of interest in this process.

The difference between an Italian driver and a Traveller driver is mainly that the first can argue the infraction immediately, locally and in his/her own language. Travellers receive these infraction advices months later and, because of the process, end up having to pay a triple cost level: the one charged by the car rental company, the one charged by the municipality, and whatever overhead the collection or recovery company has to charge for their activity.

So what I think needs to be addressed is the obscurity of the process in which municipalities, rental car companies, collection agencies, etc., attempt to collect those fines. As a poster said earlier, this process has unfortunate similarities with all kinds of online scams and it is difficult to ascertain when a fine is legitimate and when not.

So here is what I suggest: all those who feel unfairly affected by this process should write to the E.N.I.T. The Italian Government Tourism Board,

Here are the full details of how to address the New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and Toronto Office of E.N.I.T., with full addresses, telephone numbers, including names where applicable.

I believe it is incumbent upon us, travellers who love and appreciate Italy and the Italian people, to make the Italian governmental bodies for which tourism to Italy has relevance aware of the fact that we do not expect them to change laws and by-laws for our benefit but that the process as is presently does not help tourism to Italy and should be considered so as to make it more tourist-friendly.

And by all means complain to those hotels which do not provide the necessary information to their guests; it may help others.

My suggestion, for whatever is worth, was intended to draw the attention of those promoting travel to Italy, so that they will see what our concerns with the process are and possibly act as a catalyst by the regulatory level, to make the system more direct, and faster. END OF QUOTE

We will conclude by repeating that, although it appears under Doru's signature, this response was discussed and reviewed by all Moderators and represents our collective view. You may or may not agree with us. It is a free world!

The Moderators