quote:

we are not trying to kidnap and cut the fingers off of Bruce Springsteen here.

that would really get no one any kudos whatsoever

I have calmed down a bit and, thanks to Shannon, who is a star, am starting to understand what is trying to be done here. Ok so we try it. I think alot of the problem was the fact that what Shannon so eloquently said above should have been explained up front at the very beginning. It would have saved at least some of this energy drain.

Question: I think everyone knows I work with people like Megan all the time, solving vacation dilemmas for people. If someone comes on wanting a recommendation for a CT tour, and I come on and say Meg does tours and my guest love them (which they do, it's certainly not a lie but can be viewed as plug...or as an attempt to help), is the recommendation going to get pulled? Because I will be on the boards making suggestions alot less if this is the case. This is one grey area I see. Are we gonna split hairs and say that I can say Meg does the tours but no I can't say my guests love them?

What Diana points out is one of the problems...
As part of the community business owners have suggestions to give and these often have to do with other business owners...

Shannon wrote "there are or can be threads and posts of this nature that are posted on slowtalk because they BRING PEOPLE BUSINESS" and I answer: of course!

Our fellow ST want to bring us business because they know us and they appreciate us (personally and/or professionally but in our kind of travel business you can't separate the two) not because WE PAY THEM FOR IT... THIS sounds a bit offending to me...
I want Palma to be happy giving her dinners and Jane being a happy granny and if I could write something here to help them I WOULD.
This has always been the idea here (including business owners).
And, of course we will not die because of these changes but they really sound unfair and most of all make me really sad.

On the other side, thank you to the last posters for trying to clarify the new policy.

And thank you to everyone for caring and giving your opinion.

quote:

Our fellow ST want to bring us business because they know us and they appreciate us (personally and/or professionally but in our kind of travel business you can't separate the two) not because WE PAY THEM FOR IT... THIS sounds a bit offending to me...
I want Palma to be happy giving her dinners and Jane being a happy granny and if I could write something here to help them I WOULD.

So true.

The reality is that this website has attracted alot of business owners without hidden agendas, without huge behind-the-scenes marketing schemes, without a single thing to be gained by helping alot of the people we help. I can't help it, none of us can, if there are a few unscrupulous types which pop up. I can't imagine they would last here very long anyway, since there are alot of savvy people here.

And since we really (almost) all genuinely have eachother's interests at heart, this policy seems so unnecessary to us.

I was reminded this morning by a fellow member of an event which happened in 2006. The Torino Olympics when I was on the Today Show in Piazza San Carlo with Al Roker. I posted it. I was sooo excited. I could NOT wait to share it with this community. People got so excited for me!! Sheena recorded it and sent the recording to my mother, who missed it!! Did I get direct business from it being on ST? Who knows? But it was such a magical moment, and everyone cheered on Evan Lysacek, an American figure skater whose family were our guests. I wrote the whole saga here. Boy did I get kudos. Today, with this policy, that magic could not happen in the same way for another member. That magic makes up a large part of why this board in particular is SO successful at attracting members and lurkers. And by "handling" the few self promoters out there (who we would take care of in our own way anyway ) we damage that spirit. A necessary development? Maybe, the mods need to decide that, I suppose.

For me,with the emotions this thread has brought out, I guess I have realized in the last 24 hours how much support I have actually recieved here, how many kudos and how much positive energy from people with no other agenda other than to support me as a person. And for that, I am extremely grateful.

I think this is maybe the 3rd or 4th time in the recent past when a policy decision has been made which provokes lots of emotional response and as Diane said some serious "energy drain"...

I'm not even going to start commenting on this one as the arguments for and against seem to me to have been well made.

I do have a suggestion, however, for the future:

Before making such moves, the moderators should make a post along the lines of: "This is something we are considering. This is why we think its necessary. Now we'd like some input from the Community. Suggestions - changes - etc. "

Then leave the discussion open for a sufficient period of time. Let everyone get their thoughts out on the table. This will certainly be a more positive process. Collective brainstorming as opposed to criticism/reaction against.

Then organize a vote and let the majority decide.

Can we, the community members of slowtrav collectively come up with well-grounded rules and regulations designed to create an open, fruitful, informative, fair and fun place to post ? Well, at the risk of getting my post banished for political incitment, I respectfully answer "YES WE CAN !"

-Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by suncoast:
Does this mean when there is a write up about Slow Travel in any important publication it goes in this new thread?

I repeat my question.

I think Slow Travel is moving in a direction that is making me sad.

So what if Diva get's a client because she was mentioned in Bon Appetit and we were all thrilled out of our minds because she's a poster and friend here and somebody congratulated her? I would think that her fame and talent would be an asset to this site and bring in more members. That's the bottom line isn't it?

I don't know what IB's agenda is, but if they're not careful, they're going to "policy" what makes Slow Travel special, to death.

Ginger

quote:

What Diana points out is one of the problems...
As part of the community business owners have suggestions to give and these often have to do with other business owners...

Let me answer this first, using notations to spare any futher embarassement to people.

For example, when someone asks for cooking classes in Florence, my answer may be something like this: 1) You can check our classifieds, 2) Our member, XYZ does offer them though I have no personal experience with him, and here is a list of trip reports where someone has stayed in Florence and taken a cooking class which may help. (Please notice the "no personal experience" notation)

If somone asks for a travel consultant, 1) I'll say, here check our classifieds, 2) I have used ABC and was very happy with her, etc.

Here's where the problem arises though, using DEF and LMN as examples. I do not reap any financial benefit from recommending XYZ or ABC in the situations above. People use them or not, it does not affect me. However, DEF, recommends LMN, and LMN recommends DEF, there's a reciprication, a business symbiosis if you will. They both gain benefit from that arrangement and therefore it's commercial.

Now here's the kicker. And everyone please pay attention: When Pauline (NOT IB, PAULINE) was here, business people such as tour operators, who did what your saying were put on moderation for this. This line has been in our rules since the very beginning (yes before IB folks). You all agreed to it when you agreed to the Terms of Service:

quote:

No commercial postings. Do not post to promote your business, website or blog or a friend's business, website or blog.

This is not new. This has been in the rules since the beginning. Nor is this issue covered by this new rule.

The new rule says, "This includes congratulatory remarks on business achievements or media mentions." That and only that is what has changed.

The other has always been there and we try to enforce it the best we can. Now as we told these other people, when they crossed the line, if you want to recommend your friends, with whom you have a business relationship, do it privately.

Now let's deal with this one.

quote:

I don't know what IB's agenda is, but if they're not careful, they're going to "policy" what makes Slow Travel special, to death.

They have no agenda as far as these forums are concerned!!!!! I cannot state this strongly enough. They have left policy decisions for running the forum to the moderators. We may bounce stuff off them. They give us ideas, which we are completely free to reject. Yes, people - as Shannon said, there is no secret conspiracy here. As a matter of fact, I have been begging and pleading with the people at IB to get more involved so we could put to bed these "big brother" theories. Because I firmly believe once you get to know them you'll understand what complete craziness this is.

Lastly, to the remark someone said about the moderators probably didn't discuss this at all, call us liars if you will, but to everyone else, there are more posts about this topic in our forum then there are here and there are far less of us than you, so you can believe me, when I tell you we discussed this ad nauseum.

All that said, as I stated yesterday, we do care about our community and this is meant to help and support us going forward in a positive way as we grow. We'd like to spare anyone embarassment, and that's why we're not going into the specifics behind the decision.

Please, be patient and try it for a while and we can revisit this in a few months if people still don't feel comfortable with it. This change was made to continue to give people the opportunity to congratulate members on their travel business-related media mentions and accomplishments, and to showcase our business owners. By putting it in the EE forums, the Travel forums stay as a place where recommendations are made by those who have used the services as consumers. As Cristina suggested, we're looking into making a separate page on the main site where media mentions can be highlighted. Keep in mind that it is the main site where most people first go to find out about travel services.

quote:

However, DEF, recommends LMN, and LMN recommends DEF, there's a reciprication, a business symbiosis if you will. They both gain benefit from that arrangement and therefore it's commercial.

Just as it is commercial when I recommend for my friend with B&B's and vacation rentals to join the community and take out ads, which I have clearly done and has clearly happened). The result? No commercial gain for me. I get help answering Piedmont questions on the Board, ST makes the money, and the membership benefits. It it is all, if you will, good for everyone... the businesses, the consumers who have more choice, the members who have more information,and last but not least, for ST which as more content.

Reciprocity. Hmmm. Yes, well, if I recommend someone who does a lousy job just because they are going to recommend me, eventually I am gonna die as a business owner. It behooves me to know excactly who and what I am recommending out of completely selfish motives.

Kim, I do hear and get what you are saying (and I wish really to express regret if I overreacted) but like you said, we can revisit this in a few months, I suppose. I, and others I know do understand the job which is at hand for you and I think days like yesterday must be personally tougher on you than on all of us.

Andiamo davanti.

Kim, thank you very, very much! This is an excellent and very clear explanation of the existing rules; the change to the rules; and a concrete example of businesses promoting one another which even I can clearly understand.

As I am not a commercial member, I was not aware that the long-standing rule is that businesses are not allowed to promote the businesses of their FRIENDS either.

I fully agree with the existing rule. It keeps the board more, well, "honest".

And I think that the new "kudos" rule is a good idea -- or at least something worth trying.

I don't know how many business members will have difficulty living within these rules. Maybe 3-5?

Thank you as well for clarifying that the "kudos
" rule change came from the moderators, and not from IB.

Now if this clarification had started this thread.....

quote:

Thank you as well for clarifying that the "kudos
" rule change came from the moderators, and not from IB.

Now if this clarification had started this thread.....

Marion, I appreciate your response. Thank you.

Everyone, going forward, assume any and all rule changes come from the moderators, not from IB. If that ever happens, trust me, you will know.

This entire site is full of comments supporting tour guides, hotels, restaurants, B and B owners, etc. As such, we promote considerable business. I would imagine that people do make money off of this promotion. These folk and their services are promoted by members of the community for very good reason.

Some of these folks choose to be members of the community. They are allowed to offer advice, information, and make recommendations so long as they don't promote their own business. They make a valuable contribution.

I understand that some have abused this in the past and have been dealt with. This makes good sense, as any teacher will tell you; don’t punish the whole class for the actions of one or two students.

I fully understand that if I am congratulating X on a new job it does not belong on the travel board. Such a ‘call out’ is better in the gold star forums or a PM for that matter.

If I pick up my copy of the Burlington Post (a true giant amongst news organizations, let me tell you) and it has an article describing the 5 nicest B and Bs in Montespertoli I would want to post the link in the Italy board. Then if someone was searching for places to stay in Montespertoli they would have the information. If a member of the slowtravel community were inadvertently mentioned in the article as one of the B and B owners the information is just as valid. They are not promoting themselves. This is valid information about the B and B s listed. No one is receiving preferential treatment.

If I were the owner of the B and B which was mentioned I would consider NOT being a member of the slowtravel community so that I didn’t impact the possibility of my B and B being mentioned. I don’t see that as a positive move.

Surely there must be someway of sharing information about community members with all members of the slowtravel community if it is travel related. The community consists of all the folk who click though whatever link to arrive at slowtravel. The community doesn't consist of gold star members. By limited the travel information they have access to we are also potentially limiting the community at large.

quote:

If I pick up my copy of the Burlington Post (a true giant amongst news organizations, let me tell you) and it has an article describing the 5 nicest B and Bs in Montespertoli I would want to post the link in the Italy board. Then if someone was searching for places to stay in Montespertoli they would have the information. If a member of the slowtravel community were inadvertently mentioned in the article as one of the B and B owners the information is just as valid. They are not promoting themselves. This is valid information about the B and B s listed. No one is receiving preferential treatment.

Jerry, yes! As Shannon replied to you previously:

quote:

If there is an article about Acqui Terme in the New York Times, post about the article. But if a member who has a business in Acqui Terme is mentioned in this article, offer up your congratulations to that member in the Member Tidings thread.

Post the link in the Italy forum to the article but don't start a thread to congratulate the member in the Italy forum - post that in the Tidings and Mentions area. The focus should be on the article with the information. Not on the member being mentioned.

Does this require you to post twice? Well yes, once to get the information to our readers regarding the entire article (e.g., Acqui Terme) and once to congratulate your fellow member.

You know I found this old post from Pauline the last time a change was made - which has some of the same points.

From her, "We are trying to make sure the message board remains a community of travelers, not an audience of travelers for commercial posters."

"This entire site is full of comments supporting tour guides, hotels, restaurants, B and B owners, etc. As such, we promote considerable business." Absolutely true and fabulous as long as those comments are from people who have used those tour guides, hotels, restaurants, B and B owners, etc. Not from people who have never paid for those services. It's one thing to recommend a business based upon your personal experiences. It's another to recommend a business because they are a friend or a fellow business owner. But again, this is a totally different issue than this new rule covers. This has been a rule on the site from the very beginning and every single poster here agreed to these rules when they joined.

I hope that further clarifies this decision.

First, my sincere apologies to IB if I have maligned them in any way. However, after the Slow Travel Favorites policy change and now this coming so soon after they bought the site it's only natural to think that these directives are from the PTB. (Strangly, it doesn't make me feel any better that it's not.)

Second, Kim are you saying that the policy change is because somebody or a few somebodies, (who shall remain nameless) are in cahoots to congratulate each other for personal gain??

And Third, my above question remains unanswered.

Ginger

Ginger-

The Slow Travel Favorite Vacation Rental policy has not changed. Some people want it to change to include other travel related businesses, and as we said we are still looking into the feasibility. I believe the only change was that the latest favorites thread was posted by someone from IB rather than Pauline.

I don' know how to answer your second question, mainly because it would require speculating about what someone else may be thinking. Maybe saying that we (as mods) have not had the need to discuss this, is sufficient?

And yes- if you come across a mention of Slow Travel somewhere, feel free to post it in the new thread or wherever you feel it fits best.

quote:

Originally posted by suncoast:
Does this mean when there is a write up about Slow Travel in any important publication it goes in this new thread?

I repeat my question.

Is this the unanswered question you are asking about, Ginger?

If there are articles about Slow Travel, you can post about them in the travel forums. But if you want to congratulate someone IN the article that you know, please do it here.

If there is an article in Bon Appetit about cooking schools in Italy, by all means post about it. But if Diva is in it, please congratulate her here.

Some of you may be concerned about having to post twice, but chances are someone will have beat you to it in one of the cases, at least.

Ok--I understand that the decision remains. But, I am not in support of it although will live by it. Perhaps being dense, I do not understand that there is a relationship between unscrupulous operators and my ability to congratulate, in public, a STer for a well-deserved kudo. To me they appear to be different issues. I enjoy giving public recognition to friends.

I also do not feel that the option of putting the new topic on the Everything Else board as opposed to the Gold Members board has been addressed-or in all that has been said, I have missed that justification. As others have said, such public statements speak well for ST.

Pauline's earlier rules do not seem to address the issue of the current dialog re congratulations.

Revisiting in a few months is rather meaningless as I can think of no yardstick by which to measure success or failure in this instance.

But, as I said, I will try to participate within the limitations set.

A comment and a question.

Whenever I am researching for a trip, specifically to Italy, I particularly value the advice and recommendations of the folks who make their home in Italy and own businesses that cater to other tourists. Like Diana, Giulia, Letizia, Diva, Tony da Roma, and others. For example, my travel notes for our upcoming trip (leaving tomorrow) include all of Diva’s restaurant recommendations, Letizia’s Assisi notes, and Tony’s notes about the changes to the Forum. My fear is that this new policy may lead to diminishing contributions from these generous members.

Although the posting of “Member Tidings & Mentions” on the public side of the Board may bring business to these (in my opinion) esteemed members, so do their contributions bring business to ST, as alluded to by Diana. I agree with her that:

quote:

It is all, if you will, good for everyone... the businesses, the consumers who have more choice, the members who have more information, and last but not least, for ST which [h]as more content.

quote:

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but for now at least we would like to try.

My question – what will the measure be to determine if it works or not?

Perhaps this new rule has been implemented to procure more Gold Members.

Carole

quote:

If there are articles about Slow Travel, you can post about them in the travel forums. But if you want to congratulate someone IN the article that you know, please do it here.

Here I think we are getting down to the devil in the details of the implementation. When we post about a good travel article, and there happens to be an ST member involved, we can not even point out at the end of the post (without expressing any congratulations) that the B&B mentioned belongs to an ST member or that the article was written by an ST member.
Congrats in a separate thread I do understand.
But not to even allow mention that an ST member is involved seems like missing out on a chance for PR. Like I said in a previous post, this sort of thing points out the quality and depth of resources available to travelers on this website, and that it's recognized by publications other than ST themselves.
So Jane, I'm just as dense as you are.

quote:

Originally posted by LoveItaly:
Perhaps this new rule has been implemented to procure more Gold Members.
Carole

No, Carole, this change was implemented to keep the travel forums focused on travel.

I recall joining the Slow Travel community about the time Shannon and Ruth were launching their dining guide "Chow Venice".
This infact was what drew me in...the congratulations and celebration of real people who lived what they wrote about. I wanted to be part of it from the personal connections being made through this site.
There wasn't a Gold Star forum then and I could read everything on the messageboard without paying a fee. When the fee was implemented I chose to pay it only to support Pauline for all that she gave us through this site.

I like organization and think keeping the travel forums uncluttered is a great idea.

My suggestion is to move the "Member Tidings & Mentions" to the section below "Announcements" so anyone who comes upon the messageboard can read them.